Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Full-Race Geoff]

5 hours ago, minesskyline said:

Has anyone considered twin 7163's as shown here?: 

http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbo-kit/nissan-rb26dett-efr-twin-turbo-kit-1.html

This looks to be the direction I will head over the winter. 

most of our twin turbo customers go with the 6258s or 6758s.  but we have a few guys in the US, Europe and Japan with twin 7163.  the setup is another level completely... there were some twin 7163 graphs from twinsturbo recently.  i think i posted it in the other thread as well, completely mental combination

[Nismo 3.2ish]

On 08/10/2016 at 1:06 PM, Full-Race Geoff said:

most of our twin turbo customers go with the 6258s or 6758s.  but we have a few guys in the US, Europe and Japan with twin 7163.  the setup is another level completely... there were some twin 7163 graphs from twinsturbo recently.  i think i posted it in the other thread as well, completely mental combination

Here is something on the twin 7163

 

AS AN ADDED BONUS, ALL PRO SERIES TURBO KITS NOW COME WITH A SUPRASTORE T-SHIRT!!

One of our favorite turbo kits from back in the day was the HKS Twin Kits using GT Series turbochargers. These kits are no longer available, so we decided to release a kit that would make HKS proud, by amping up the game considerably, with ultra-modern turbo technology and a ultra-trick twin v-band mount exhaust manifold.

Our twin kits offer a wide range of power delivery and torque and use only Borg Warner EFR 7163 dual ceramic ball bearing, Ti Beta Gamma Wheeled, Internal blow off valve and boost control turbochargers by Borg Warner.

After working with Geoff at Full Race and BW to determine the best path forward for the SupraStore twin kit, we agreed that the mixed flow EFR 7163 would be the ideal choice. We're looking to produce the most torque and transient response down low of any twin kit ever produced while at the same time offering a compressor map that can yield us power across the entire map. We've achieved this with the 7163 twin kit.

These are the same turbos used in the 2014/15 IndyCar series and are the most robust, low end torque building turbos we've ever seen. They develop torque quicker and come up to boost more efficiently than any turbo on the planet.

We believe this is the ultimate 525-1000HP street twin kit on the market. It spools as good as any single kit capable of making 1000rwhp, but where it differentiates itself is in transient response, torque (bucket loads down low) and the incredible technology wrapped up inside BW EFR turbos.

You can run these turbos as low as 525HP in the twin set-up, so those of you on pump gas can utilize this kit as well.

[XGTRX]

On 8 October 2016 at 1:03 PM, Full-Race Geoff said:

thanks.  i get tired of posting this ^^^ in response to "what does it trap" posts.  Believe me guys, i get it - you want to compare it to every other turbo out there.

Hmmmm, yep people do and peak power is one of the parameters people like to compare. Regardless, these sound pretty awesome through the mid-range and through transition.

[Ryan1200]

About 3 years ago one of Nizpro's customers ("Steve" with an FG) went through various upgrade stages and eventually ended up with an EFR8374 with T3 internally gated housing on the stock exhaust manifold which he went 9s at just over 140mph with - in a full interior FG Turbo Falcon.  He then upgraded to an EFR9180 and ended up running ~9.4s and trapped as high as 150mph with it, from memory.  He now runs twin EFR7163s and has trapped near 160mph.

 

7 hours ago, XGTRX said:

Hmmmm, yep people do and peak power is one of the parameters people like to compare. Regardless, these sound pretty awesome through the mid-range and through transition.

The above is a good example of a well sorted combination using all the power efficiently, fast shifting gearbox with good gear ratios, great power band, no lag and no driver error. Horsepower and weight is only two parts of the equation XGTRX. Carry on thinking a dyno figure and weight MUST = MPH 

 

[Lithium]

5 hours ago, Ryan1200 said:

The above is a good example of a well sorted combination using all the power efficiently, fast shifting gearbox with good gear ratios, great power band, no lag and no driver error. Horsepower and weight is only two parts of the equation XGTRX. Carry on thinking a dyno figure and weight MUST = MPH 

More or less - MPH really is more accurately an indicator of "how much power the car gets to the strip".   You can't go near 150mph without having a lot of power, the reason I posted those is that those trap speeds have been done with an EFR8374, 9180 and twin 7163s respectively and if nothing else I was hoping it'd stop dyno arguments and put more focus on the fact that these turbos result in *ACTUAL* fast cars with easily accessible power for their claimed flow rates.   

A lot of the people who question the performance of these turbos are looking at the wrong things for comparison, and arguably these turbos are NOT actually for them as in all honesty - if I was building a drag car I would not use an EFR, it's a waste of the tech and the effort to get it working.  Go straight to a Precision and enjoy more lb/min per mm of compressor inducer and just crank the boost to way off the map and in most cases the turbo will choke before grenading due to overspeeding.   They are comparatively simple to work with for simpler uses by often (but certainly not always) simpler people.

The EFRs are a different beast, I indicated this at the start of the first thread I created on this and still maintain it.  It's basically a motorsport level turbo available for the masses and has certain compromises in cost and tolerance in order to allow much better performance if you are willing to put the effort into correctly matching your setup and spending the time and money getting it all together and working properly.

From what I can tell and have experienced with these, the turbo matches aren't to get the max lb/min per mm of inducer or whatever, it is to provide an airpump which will make the engine it's attached to move as close as possible to the target airflow as quickly and easily as possible.  A smaller turbine or compressor "small side" does not promise this every bit as much as a bigger turbine or compressor small side clearly doesn't automatically mean more flow.  

Selecting the turbo and setting it up may require a bit more thought than throwing a Precision Gen2something on and pondering whether to use springs or gapfill in the wastegates for setting target boost, and it may be wiser (but certainly not necessary if you've done everything right) to monitor turbine speeds to ensure things don't go out of target but again... this kind of thing has been par for the course for a LONG time in high end motorsport.  You are just able to reap the benefits previously exclusively available to people who thought nothing of spending 5 digit sums for their airpumps, but also some of the obligations resulting in using highend materials in order to get the nth degree of performance from them.  Owning very high end equipment doesn't make you a very high end operator, so results may vary when people buy these things.

For the people with doubts about these turbos, a few things to consider:

How many people can you find who have moved from low mount twins, Garrett GTX/Precision singles, or other turbo combinations to EFRs and raved about it?   Now how many people who have owned then decided to move to Precision/low mount twins/Garrett GTX etc when there is an EFR to suit the results they are looking for? 

[discopotato03]

Hi Geoff , a few years back I spoke of using a TS T3 to T4 adapter plate to fit a TS 7163IW turbo to a stock RB25DET cast exhaust manifold .

Can you supply such an adapter plate in stainless to adapt the TS IW EFR B1 turbine housing onto these Nissan exhaust manifolds ?

Cheers Adrian .

[s2d4]

1 hour ago, discopotato03 said:

Hi Geoff , a few years back I spoke of using a TS T3 to T4 adapter plate to fit a TS 7163IW turbo to a stock RB25DET cast exhaust manifold .

Can you supply such an adapter plate in stainless to adapt the TS IW EFR B1 turbine housing onto these Nissan exhaust manifolds ?

Cheers Adrian .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-Undivided-to-T4-Divided-Twin-Scroll-Countersunk-Turbo-Flange-Adapter-1-2-CNC-/131788266317?hash=item1eaf315b4d:g:XfQAAOSwezVWwTfM&vxp=mtr

Something similar to that I guess, all over ebay, just got to find it. 

EDIT: Here we go, exactly what you are after. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-Divided-to-T4-Undivided-Countersunk-Turbo-Flange-Adapter-HX35-HX40-Cummins-/131736442354?hash=item1eac1a95f2:g:CyQAAOxyshFRdpqw&vxp=mtr

 

Not that I think it's a good idea....

Edited October 13, 2016 by s2d4

[R_34]

I bought and received this one yesterday :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-Divided-Countersunk-to-T4-Divided-Inlet-Turbo-Adapter-S300-HX30-HX35-HX40-5-9-/131961409970

My plan is also to be able to fit a B1 frame T4 EFR on the stock manifold. I'm still unsure which one, 7163 or 6758 but I want to keep stock manifold and its heatshield and why not welding a support on the downpipe to keep the OEM turbo heatshield also.

I'm not close to buy a turbo, I'll just try to fit this adapter to the manifold and see how it goes and if it's doable or if I need to buy an aftermarket manifold/weld a T3 adapter on EFR housing/go EFR 7064 in T3 pattern and call it a day.

Why you thinks it's not a good idea s2d4 ?

[s2d4]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-Undivided-Countersunk-to-T4-Divided-Twin-Scroll-Turbo-Flange-Adapter-1-2-CNC-/131634376303?hash=item1ea6052e6f:g:Lz0AAMXQDXRRH8PB&vxp=mtr

This one is probably the better one rather than a decent size flat bar in the middle. 

Might be defeating the purpose of TS turbos by feeding through single then a straight bar in the middle. 

[R_34]

You're right the one you posted is the one I got I didn't paid to much attention to the advert when I search in the shop.

Mine look like this :

The OEM exhaust manifol is TS like, there is a bar in the middle of the flange to force the gas coming from the first three cylinders to turn in the housing rather than piling up in the back 3 cylinders.

There is just a notch in that barrier that need to be welded and then the adapter could bolt straight up giving a TS T4 manifold. Not equal length, tune dlength or anything, just OEM look, stealthiness, compacity and reliability.

[R_34]

Doesn't look that bad :

 

 

I need to find a manifold in better shape that this one which is cracked at sevaral places, some of the stud holes have seen a drill and most of thebolt of the heatshield are seized in it.

But the adapter fit, the port shape of the adapter is almost flush with the manifold. As I said before I just need to weld the notch and deck the flange of the manifold et and it will be good to go.

[Full-Race Geoff]

yes I agree, try the adaptor.  here is a similar fitment photos that somebody sent to me

 

[R_34]

I've already seen this motor in pictures, it's installed in a yellow S13 in central europe I don't know exactly where but I've seen some of his pics. The guy has a blog and a facebook page about his car. Not much info on what the engine put down or the powerband of the car.

I've seen IRL an other s13 with a RB25 S2 in an S13 with a T3 7064 too competing in the drift championship here in France. Well until the last round where it crashed it in the mountains. Couldn't get in it for a ride.

Being in a LHD country it is a little bit challenging for the dump but there is enough space to do something nice even in 3", just needs some more bends to avoid the steering column.

[usmair]

some more data

BW 8374 on a built motor in a R32 GTR

on semi's so MPH would probably have been higher on normal tyres

on a perfect run he could have got a 10.0 or even a sub 10 but got booted after one run.... 60ft is fairly average...

hasnt been back since

[XGTRX]

On 29 October 2016 at 0:43 AM, usmair said:

some more data

BW 8374 on a built motor in a R32 GTR

on semi's so MPH would probably have been higher on normal tyres

on a perfect run he could have got a 10.0 or even a sub 10 but got booted after one run.... 60ft is fairly average...

hasnt been back since

Thats awesome man, at least your dyno figure is in the MPH ball park, good on you mate. Did you change anything from the last run?

[Buraz]

some more data
BW 8374 on a built motor in a R32 GTR
on semi's so MPH would probably have been higher on normal tyres
on a perfect run he could have got a 10.0 or even a sub 10 but got booted after one run.... 60ft is fairly average...
hasnt been back since

That's awesome mate!!! Bloody quick for sure. 60ft is def average and more in it. That's like almost identical time and mph to Andrew Hawkins R32 GTR on motive DVD. I think he runs a GTX3582R tho.

[usmair]

7 hours ago, XGTRX said:

Thats awesome man, at least your dyno figure is in the MPH ball park, good on you mate. Did you change anything from the last run?

this one is a friend's car

[omnigear]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:06 PM, Full-Race Geoff said:

most of our twin turbo customers go with the 6258s or 6758s.  but we have a few guys in the US, Europe and Japan with twin 7163.  the setup is another level completely... there were some twin 7163 graphs from twinsturbo recently.  i think i posted it in the other thread as well, completely mental combination

that tranny must be screaming then  . or was it a dogbone setup?

[R_34]

I spotted this morning on FB that a compressor update is coming on the 8374 which will become a 8474 :

 

 

It shows some nice gain in flow beyond 2.2 PR with high efficiency even at high flow rates. The surge line hasn't moved too much to the right, wait and see for the spool characteristic of this new combo as a +5mm on the inducer is huge.

IMHO i may replace the 9174 as it has almost the same practical flow, better efficiency but with a smaller compressor wheel.

[Piggaz]

Ooooo... been waiting for this .

i wonder when they're going to be released and what this does to the other snails in the lineup.

Hopefully the extra flow is without copping a penalty which would be ideal but hopeful at the same time.

Is the rear big enough to accomodate the large increase in flow?