Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Shoota_77]

39 minutes ago, Piggaz said:

Why a 9174 when the 8474 is around? ?

Honestly it comes down to cost. I’d love to have cash to burn but unfortunately not. I know it’s probably only another $750 or so but where do you stop?  I haven’t driven my car for 7 years so anything is going to be good! ? 

I can get the 9174 or 9180 for under $3500 whereas I can’t see 8474’s for under $4250. I haven’t done a lot of research on other 8474 either TBH.  Will it produce more than the 9174/9180 or just better spool?

 

[Piggaz]

Turbo selection cost is a drop in the ocean compared to setting up the rest of the car...

[Shoota_77]

I know, I know...

But yet again, there has to be a point where you say enough is enough and also - do I actually need to make another 40 kW more??  I can't argue with the improved response though, that's more what I'm after. 

So... Might have tracked down a 8474....  Will only be 1.05 housing though. 

[usmair]

On 27/08/2019 at 6:24 PM, Nosure said:

This was 4th gear dyno but I got 4.1 diff ratio. (Original diff ratio 3.5)  So if use 5th gear it should spool a little better.  4.1 4th gear is same as 3.5 ratio 3rd gear.

 I haven’t drive the car yet. So can’t tell what it drive like.  

It reach full boost about 5000rpm. About 400rpm slower than my old 3582 0.82a/r. But also different cams, exhaust, intercooler. 3.5 diff. Everything bigger with 8474.   

mid range definitely not as meaty as 8374

certainly has more top end potential

more comparable to a 9180

Edited September 7, 2019 by usmair

[Shoota_77]

EFR8474 ordered, arriving this week but manifold a few weeks/a month away. 

Aiming for results before Christmas (RB30/26 (9.5:1 comp), Sinco manifold, 60mm Powergate, 4" exhaust, E85, water/meth injection(if I get around to installing it...).

Hopefully should be a response monster!

 

[Lithium]

13 minutes ago, Shoota_77 said:

EFR8474 ordered, arriving this week but manifold a few weeks/a month away. 

Aiming for results before Christmas (RB30/26 (9.5:1 comp), Sinco manifold, 60mm Powergate, 4" exhaust, E85, water/meth injection(if I get around to installing it...).

Hopefully should be a response monster!

 

Oh very nice, that sounds like a VERY potent combo in the making!

[Lithium]

On 27/08/2019 at 8:24 PM, Nosure said:

 I haven’t drive the car yet. So can’t tell what it drive like.  

It reach full boost about 5000rpm. About 400rpm slower than my old 3582 0.82a/r. But also different cams, exhaust, intercooler. 3.5 diff. Everything bigger with 8474.   

Hi man, any updates?  Picked up/driven the car yet?  Keen to hear how this is in the real world

[Nosure]

On 9/9/2019 at 12:04 PM, Lithium said:

Hi man, any updates?  Picked up/driven the car yet?  Keen to hear how this is in the real world

Hi. Not yet. We just done hardline for wastegate water cool. And the car will back on dyno to finish the tune.  

[Nosure]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:59 AM, usmair said:

mid range definitely not as meaty as 8374

certainly has more top end potential

more comparable to a 9180

Yeah. I think 1.45 a/r cost a bit mid range.  But power potential is there.  

[iruvyouskyrine]

If anyone knows of a T4 1.05 rear turbine housing to suit EFR7670 please let me know, somewhat of a budget so looking for used at the moment, thanks.

[usmair]

please excuse the essay, however for those who are interested, I have recently changed ECUs on my car and had the EFR 9180 1.05 re-tuned using a Link G4 (had a platinum pro before). 

Tuner is also different.

Dyno was roller in the past... it is now being tuned on a hub dyno, although I have been told that at this power level (under 650kw) there is minimal difference in the readings between roller and dyno.... make of that what you will.

So.... power has remained fairly consistent - old tune made 580 kw initially and after the dyno was reconfigured, it made ~560kw atw.

New tune on hub dyno made 574kw... so power is pretty consistent... even after 18 months on a stock bottom end.

Dyno slip attached.

Now... the most interesting part is response.... on the old dyno/tune, which I'll upload if anyone is interested (need to go and find it and scan it etc).... the EFR 9180 was making 37 psi by around 5700-5800RPM.... 

As you can see on the new tune... the EFR is now making 36psi by 5000-5100RPM.... so it is now 400-600rpm more responsive. The only mechanical change was the adjustment of the cam gears.... the rest is all tuning, both with a newer and better tech ECU and more time spent on the actual tune.

Before driving the car, I originally thought it was all bullocks and that the 'response' was just a difference in the dyno setup... eg. hub vs roller, ramp rate, weather differences etc etc so I was sceptical.... but I actually tested and it is genuinely more responsive. I was in 5th on the motorway at around 3500RPM... put my foot down and revved it to 5200rpm and the eboost reading showed 36psi... it did not used to do that before.... it is genuinely more responsive, which is amazing. The old tune it would make 36 psi around 5700 RPM... so there you go.

I also spoke to the tuner in depth regarding the tune. Since it is a stock bottom end (rods, piston, oil pump and sump) the tune is deliberately rich up top to help keep the motor alive... if we leaned it out some more it will pick up some more top end.

In addition, the stock CAS is not reading the signal properly above 8000 rpm and I was told this is holding back around 15-20kw of power.

So, on a built motor with the right gear, an EFR 9180 should made 600kw+ on a hub dyno.

Now.... whilst having power figures and dyno print outs is all great and dandy, the real test for me atleast is quarter mile times and trap speed. I want a 9.X on this setup, which I didn't get at GTR festival because I snapped my transfer case in half.

However, I have been assured, that my car with the stock motor + 9180 + sequential will do a 9 (as low as 9.6 / 9.7 if all the stars align on a perfect run) and that it will trap between 144 to 148mph.... which is crazy since my best trap speed has been 140mph on the old tune (although I did not have boost by gear at the time and it wasn't running max power down most of the strip).

I was going to take it to WSID next week or the week after, however I picked the car up on friday and took it for a drive and blew up the rear diff! so now the car is sitting in the garage for a few weeks while I sort that out.

Once fixed, I will head out to the track. Lets see how it goes. 145mph trap speed on a stock motor is nuts so lets hope it holds together.

Starting to think that on a built 2.6 with the right gear, there is no reason why a 9180 cant have 600hp by 5,000 RPM and hold 800-850 hp all the way to 8,500.... trap 150mph whilst still being a responsive street setup.

Lets see.... the saga continues.

P.S I have the speed sensor hooked up but I didn't ask about the turbo speed. Although I am certainly spinning it beyond the recommendations by Borg Warner.

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by usmair

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Great write up with the car, hopefully you go to the track and get kicked off (that's a good thing).

1 hour ago, usmair said:

the stock CAS is not reading the signal properly above 8000 rpm

Try these, simple and effective upgrade for any CAS issues, I know it's not as accurate as a proper crank trigger kit - but it's so much better than the Nissan CAS. Nearly all my silly misfires, issues with triggering are now non-existent.

https://www.nzwiring.com/index.php/product/trigger-kit/

[Dale FZ1]

100% agreement with the NZ Wiring trigger kit.

Simple to fit, affordable, and should satisfactorily resolve most scatter.

Lithium has indicated lots of success with them, if you want more confirmation

 

[Lithium]

On 07/08/2019 at 2:52 PM, Lithium said:

Someone I know had a drift car on the dyno today running an RB32 on E85 with a 1.05a/r EFR9180 on the side of it.  Is running an RB26 head with Tomei Pro cams and a bit of head porting and a Hypertune intake manifold on the side.

He initially tuned it with a flat boost curve until it started rolling over, which happened at a bit over 600kw @ hubs on ~25psi - at which point the VE started rolling over bad, but compressor speed at this point is only ~101,000rpm so it would be easy to assume this is just a hotside restriction, which is what a lot of people conclude when tuning EFRs on RBs.

This is where things get interesting, tracing the speed line for 101,000rpm through the compressor map to where it intersects with pressure ratio 2.7 (at ~84lb/min, way below the 95lb/min claimed for these things) the efficiency has absolutely plummeted - like WAY below 60% (not actually plotted, but it's pretty clear looking at the map).   The trick is that at PRs of >3 the efficiency starts holding much much better, getting into the >90lb/min area without going under 60% efficiency at points... so he decided to try feeding it a bunch through the midrange until he reached the max compressor speed and holding/bleeding it back as everything would allow, ending up with 35psi bleeding back to 24psi.

End result is a HUGE power delivery.  For reference, a full weight R32 GT-R making 580awkw on this dyno has run 9.9 @ 147mph with an H-pattern.

Quite interesting getting another almost 100kw from a setup that appeared tapped out... shows the value of having and understanding flow maps and other data on what is happening, then using to match to what you are doing. 

 

10 minutes ago, Dale FZ1 said:

100% agreement with the NZ Wiring trigger kit.

Simple to fit, affordable, and should satisfactorily resolve most scatter.

Lithium has indicated lots of success with them, if you want more confirmation

 

Can definitely vouch, the car in the post I quoted above from August uses one of these kits - among plenty of others I know of or have tuned myself. 

A crank trigger is obviously the penultimate but these have proven more than sufficient and the ease of installation and being a fraction of the price are pretty hard to overlook

Edited September 22, 2019 by Lithium

[Lithium]

11 hours ago, usmair said:

please excuse the essay, however for those who are interested, I have recently changed ECUs on my car and had the EFR 9180 1.05 re-tuned using a Link G4 (had a platinum pro before). 

Tuner is also different.

I also spoke to the tuner in depth regarding the tune. Since it is a stock bottom end (rods, piston, oil pump and sump) the tune is deliberately rich up top to help keep the motor alive... if we leaned it out some more it will pick up some more top end.

I was going to take it to WSID next week or the week after, however I picked the car up on friday and took it for a drive and blew up the rear diff! so now the car is sitting in the garage for a few weeks while I sort that out.

Starting to think that on a built 2.6 with the right gear, there is no reason why a 9180 cant have 600hp by 5,000 RPM and hold 800-850 hp all the way to 8,500.... trap 150mph whilst still being a responsive street setup.

P.S I have the speed sensor hooked up but I didn't ask about the turbo speed. Although I am certainly spinning it beyond the recommendations by Borg Warner.

Good read, albeit clearly telling a story of ups and downs for yourself.  The new tuner/setup sounds like it was worth the investment - though as much as I am more of a Link fan than a Haltech one, the upgrade is a bit of a sideways step... is there a specific reason for going the Link?   One of the places the Haltech does have an edge over the Links is that they support a higher sampling rate from digital inputs, so running a turbine speed sensor on a Link is a bit of a PITA.  You'll need to do some wiring or use a digital->analog signal converter to make sense of the signal from the TSS.

A mate has a built RB26/EFR9180 combo going on the dyno in the next day or so before being sent over to Oz for WTAC, they aren't going to go "full send" as its a drift car being built at the last minute - but I'll share some results if appropriate.

[iruvyouskyrine]

You are the bravest man i know running ~600kw on a stock bottom end with a factory CAS. I can almost guarantee you there is more than 20kw to be had by changing to a crank trigger setup. The NZwiring kit is good but at that power level i would go straight to a PRP kit or similar, what balancer are you using? and is the Link a wire in or plugin ECU?

[burn4005]

Yea you are nuts running stock cas. At that kind of cylinder pressure/crank acceleration you're scatter would be 3 degrees plus easy. 

Being able to introduce 3 degrees of solid timing advance one the triggering is solid is huge power at 35psi.

[Lithium]

2 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

Yea you are nuts running stock cas. At that kind of cylinder pressure/crank acceleration you're scatter would be 3 degrees plus easy. 

Being able to introduce 3 degrees of solid timing advance one the triggering is solid is huge power at 35psi.

Yeah, I have to admit having a brief heart palpitation when I read that it was stock CAS up to this point.  It's either been giving away power, or spiking from MBT to over-advanced.   Given it's kept it's head on etc, it's probably giving away power.

[burn4005]

If you want an easy solution JHH engineering do 12-1 or 36-2 trigger wheels welded to 1000hp ati balancers that are just a balancer swap and two sumb bolts for the hall sensors bracket. A few hours to install tops. 

Put an AEM 24-1 disc in the stock cas and use the single window for the reset signal and you're good to go. 

[iruvyouskyrine]

I emailed JHH but haven't received a reply as to the cost of the JHH trigger kit @burn4005 mind sharing how much it cost? Also platinum are currently testing a crank based 36-2 which i see as the ultimate solution and wouldn't hesitate for a second to recommend especially for a stock bottom end warrior at this sort of power level, it's only a 4-5 hours to install at the most. Even the 12 tooth platinum kit would be 999x better than current situation.