Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, Kinkstaah said:

The calling card of HG is that they do not need much if any fabrication to fit.

There's more than you might think though. Recent learnings from the last month:

• The Hitachi core is really long. The HG highflow's BB core is really short. So even though the housings are the same as stock, with the turbine housing located in exactly the same place, on the exhaust manifold flange, the compressor housing moves backwards.
  • You have to remake parts of the intake pipe from AFM because the BOV recirc pipe and engine breather come in to suit the forward location. They don't want to move back without even more rework.
  • The turbo heat shielding needs rework. The new oil and water line locations don't work with it.
  • The water lines have to be redone. You can't hope to fit the big Nissan water fittings onto the smaller inlets of the highflow core. This is fine, and expected, as it is written on the webpage.
  • Tao's choice of oil drain adapter that he sends is too short to consider using. Using the shorty would bring the rubber oil drain hose right up close to the turbine housing. We didn't want that, so had to source another.
• The wastegate actuator bracket doesn't fit (on a Neo in an R32) because it hits the chassis rail. The straight actuator rod places the actuator too far outboard. Need to cut and shut bracket and rod to use the original bent rod from an original Nissan turbo, or fab completely new.

None of this is killer, and at least you don't have to do a new dump etc. But I'm just pointing out that even the easy option is not always easy. I would not have been able to get this all done in my driveway, for example. Just too many things to be done. OK, some people would be able to get it done in their driveway - but they have more tools and broken bits in their shed than even I do.

[CowsWithGuns]

Thanks for your feedback guys, that is some good food for thought Kinkstaah. I'm still unclear on whether two EWGs are required to do TS setups correctly, or did you and your friend only have one?

I don't have AC (although I might reinstall it with some custom lines when I get over the hotboi life) so that's a non issue. Custom intake and exhaust is going to happen regardless, and even with my hypergear 'bolt on' I ended up doing custom oil/water lines because AN is cool. Plumbing EWG is an extra bit of dicking around and cost that I don't welcome (my welding/fabricating skills are poor enough) and I don't really expect to go E85 anytime soon, or ever, unless there's a pump much closer to home. So, with all that said, would IWG still be a hefty restraint on my top end? I was playing with the matchbot and I'm getting ~45% gating depending on assumptions, on the 63mm 0.80 turbine. Seems very high (tech manual does not specify the G-type housing wastegate limits, other housings are between 40-45%).

It's a shame my engine is semi built (forged pistons, valve springs and oil fruit) from a more ambitious era and I won't be using its potential. I keep wondering if I should upsize to a 7670 - but then I immediately conclude its foolish because it really is my daily driver and I just am sick of getting slapped by civics at low speeds  Unless it isn't foolish??? Truly this is the worst part of cars, decisions like this keep me up at night. I can't find enough (any) dyno comparisons of a 7163 TS to a 7670 TS on 25 NEO to have something quantitative to decide on 😪

 

 

[GTSBoy]

For a single gate on TS manifold/housing I would try to take separate pipes from each side of the divided manifold collector over to the gate and do another merge collector between two into the gate. You make a divider in there that sits right up close to the poppet valve. When the valve is closed you retain decent scroll separation. When the valve is open, it doesn't matter many more anyway.

The only hassle is the geometry and space required to build that. It has been done, so it can be done.

[Kinkstaah]

2 hours ago, CowsWithGuns said:

Thanks for your feedback guys, that is some good food for thought Kinkstaah. I'm still unclear on whether two EWGs are required to do TS setups correctly, or did you and your friend only have one?

I don't have AC (although I might reinstall it with some custom lines when I get over the hotboi life) so that's a non issue. Custom intake and exhaust is going to happen regardless, and even with my hypergear 'bolt on' I ended up doing custom oil/water lines because AN is cool. Plumbing EWG is an extra bit of dicking around and cost that I don't welcome (my welding/fabricating skills are poor enough) and I don't really expect to go E85 anytime soon, or ever, unless there's a pump much closer to home. So, with all that said, would IWG still be a hefty restraint on my top end? I was playing with the matchbot and I'm getting ~45% gating depending on assumptions, on the 63mm 0.80 turbine. Seems very high (tech manual does not specify the G-type housing wastegate limits, other housings are between 40-45%).

It's a shame my engine is semi built (forged pistons, valve springs and oil fruit) from a more ambitious era and I won't be using its potential. I keep wondering if I should upsize to a 7670 - but then I immediately conclude its foolish because it really is my daily driver and I just am sick of getting slapped by civics at low speeds  Unless it isn't foolish??? Truly this is the worst part of cars, decisions like this keep me up at night. I can't find enough (any) dyno comparisons of a 7163 TS to a 7670 TS on 25 NEO to have something quantitative to decide on 😪

I only had the one, and it didn't have a divided pulse to the gate. Whether this is true twinscroll or not, or whether it helped or not, or whether it made it entirely useless or not, I just don't know (and will never know)

This was my dyno result though (on E85)

Either will work, and the boring (but true) answer is your motor is going to last longer making less power. So you can tell yourself you went the smaller turbo for more reliability

Given your engine bay was the same size as mine, I really did not like mounting the 7670. Even with proper 'bolt on' kits, I was never happy with how lines ran, how close hot things were to hot other things, how close wiring was (which melted), and blowing up my aircon line multiple times (yes), it was honestly a bit of a pain in the ass running high mount.

Mind you, I was still running the standard TB. If you've removed aircon, you may have a FFP, your setup could be a little different too.

So believe me when I say space is at a premium if you don't want to cut holes. It would be interesting for science to see what happens if someone (you) bolted a 7163 to the stock manifold (if possible) and/or low mounted the thing. You may not know the pain you are potentially dodging.

Also no matter what you do, buy a 90 that you can use off the outlet. You'll need it.

I am biased though. I gave the above away and have a 280kw setup with no turbo lag at all, and no turbo to speak of. Get aircon again. Make the car useful. Summer is coming. Rule #1 has got to be "make sure the car does not annoy you, and gives smiles instead".

I now look at people who make 450kw and know the hassles that come with all of it, and smile and am happy to be off the crazy E85 crack train and running things at 101%.

Go 7163, go simple, run under max threshhold, kick the shit out of it, put on aircon, listen to music, enjoy life.
Both of these will work better than the Hypergear. Whether that is really worth the $10k it will probably cost all up is entirely up to you to evaluate.

[Kinkstaah]

Here's the SR20 with the EFR7163.

As you can see it's falling over up top, but he has some cams that were geared for response. I do think if you're living in 98 land and don't overspin this thing that it'd still do the job, and if you want to eliminate "my current turbo is a bit laggy" then well yeah, this'll do the job.

Or.. G25-550, for even more compact turbo-that-fits-low-mounted-but-more-transient-lag.

[CowsWithGuns]

Righto then, it's gonna happen. Mounting to the stock manifold would be a groovy adventure, but I'm enraptured by the thought of twin scroll and I'll deal with whatever bullshit comes (knowing that I've been warned) 

I don't have an FFP and as much as I'd like to burn more money, I'll find a short (probably R33?) TB and run it around the top. Stock j-pipe gives me the heeby jeebies and I look forward to it's elimination.

With it settled on the 7163 T4 TS IWG, the next quest is finding the right manifold. I'm intrigued by this Tonnka creation sold on Goleby's at the moment. It looks really pretty and I'm a broad minded person for exposed stainless. If they agree to make me one ungated for a similar price, I'll risk it and try. There's not one hit on SAU for Tonnka and my search on other communities is ongoing. It's sold by a few reputable stores so - maybe it's good? Will also search for low/mid mount T4 TS and seriously consider it - if it exists.

Thanks for sharing all that Kink, I'm confident and excited! Install pending over Christmas holidays, possibly with bonus aircon return lol. I'll post the results here and in the dyno thread.

Edited September 23, 2023 by CowsWithGuns

[Rand0b]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:16 PM, Lithium said:

Any idea if some of the SX-R upgrades are going to flow over the to EFR range?  The compressor map for the S200SX-R 7670 (/ S258SX-R?) looks like a cracker and could only imagine similar aero would make a worthy and needed update for the EFR7670:

would this be a good fit for a Rb25? what do you think it could make with a piston and rod motor? 600 on E?

[Lithium]

On 22/09/2023 at 6:24 PM, Kinkstaah said:

As you can see it's falling over up top, but he has some cams that were geared for response. I do think if you're living in 98 land and don't overspin this thing that it'd still do the job, and if you want to eliminate "my current turbo is a bit laggy" then well yeah, this'll do the job.
 

That may well be partly to do with cam timing though I'd not rule out the possibility that it's the hotside.  I've seen a good number of EFR7163 results with divided housings which seem to choke up a bit, and realistically that turbo is not necessarily ever going to be ideal for an engine that flows reasonably well compared to a more mild SR20DET (like an RB25) but as much of a divided housing fan I am, I'd be super concerned about a divided EFR7163 working well on an RB25.   EMAP seems likely to get up a bit, and with internal gates that can turn into a super big pain in the a55.    I feel the cost and expense of a twin scroll EFR on an RB25 aiming for "only" 300kw may not age well and would be more inclined to go with an open housing 7163 if that was the direction.   

On 22/09/2023 at 3:34 PM, CowsWithGuns said:

It's a shame my engine is semi built (forged pistons, valve springs and oil fruit) from a more ambitious era and I won't be using its potential. I keep wondering if I should upsize to a 7670 - but then I immediately conclude its foolish because it really is my daily driver and I just am sick of getting slapped by civics at low speeds  Unless it isn't foolish??? Truly this is the worst part of cars, decisions like this keep me up at night. I can't find enough (any) dyno comparisons of a 7163 TS to a 7670 TS on 25 NEO to have something quantitative to decide on 😪

There isn't a lot out there, I personally am not a super big fan of the EFR7670 relative to the rest of the EFR range.   The only RB25 EFR7670 I've experienced was a T3 open one so not the best example - however I'd not recommend it for what it sounds like you're after, it was definitely lazier than I'd hoped or expected <4000rpm and I'd say a small G30 or the likes would actually be a lot more rewarding if you're only aiming for 300kw (hubs or wheels?).    

As I mentioned above, I feel like the healthier flowing 7163s I've seen are ones with open housings - here is a dyno plot from a car over here in NZ running BP98.   This is a 4WD Primera running an SR20VE (someone can probably correct me but I get the impression the VEs drive turbos a little less at lower rpm but hold on WAY better at high rpm compared to their DE siblings?) and a vband open housing.   Despite being the VE head I think this is a pretty decent spool for this kind of power on pump gas:

Being able to support that kind of power on pump on low 20psi boost makes me suspect it would be very nice on an RB25 in terms of not being excessively small, but also can imagine it'd stand up NICE in the sub 4000rpm range.   As has been mentioned elsewhere in here, the boost threshold on EFRs isn't necessarily where they really impress - it's how responsive they are to throttle when in their boost threshold area.     This kind of setup has potential to be hilariously fun on a 25 you want to stand up well from low rpm.

As an aside, despite being WAY off topic here and probably an unpopular viewpoint - I went for a drive in an EFR7670 car and also drove my old Skyline which now runs a Holset HX35 and the Holset setup made the EFR feel lazy as f**k.   Granted, it was comparing a ~50lb/min turbo with a ~62lb/min turbo - but the Holset was making 320kw @ hubs which is a nice spot for a pump gas RB25 street car and it drove hands down better than any other RB25 I've driven.    Full boost around 3200rpm/3300rpm from memory, insane transient response, and sounded awesome.    Annoyingly that was my original choice for that car when I owned it but I went GT3076R to make things simpler and go stock manifold but that turned into a nightmare of trying to make boost control stable.  At least I was a guinea pig for people doing the same thing in future    But yeah, my old car makes more power than when I had it and spools almost like it has a stock turbo.... I suspect a huge amount of people over the years who have looked into RB25 turbo upgrades would actually choose that turbo in an instant if they experienced it - especially when you consider how cheap they are.

23 hours ago, Rand0b said:

would this be a good fit for a Rb25? what do you think it could make with a piston and rod motor? 600 on E?

On what kind of dyno?  On a hubber I'd expect so, spool should be pretty respectable but it's obviously a journal bearing turbo - the Airwerks range are decent but not the most (or least...) responsive under foot so it kinda depends on what you're comparing to.  Given the turbos aren't even in circulation yet it's hard to say how seriously they should be considered but if it helps, I'd not go for one if I was counting on it being all in under 4000rpm - but I'd also hope not too much later than that either.

[Kinkstaah]

2 hours ago, Lithium said:

That may well be partly to do with cam timing though I'd not rule out the possibility that it's the hotside.  I've seen a good number of EFR7163 results with divided housings which seem to choke up a bit, and realistically that turbo is not necessarily ever going to be ideal for an engine that flows reasonably well compared to a more mild SR20DET (like an RB25) but as much of a divided housing fan I am, I'd be super concerned about a divided EFR7163 working well on an RB25.   EMAP seems likely to get up a bit, and with internal gates that can turn into a super big pain in the a55.    I feel the cost and expense of a twin scroll EFR on an RB25 aiming for "only" 300kw may not age well and would be more inclined to go with an open housing 7163 if that was the direction.   

I'm with you 100%. The SR20 was using 256 degree poncams, and no matter what turbo you threw at them, they always had this curve to them.

If we have to choose "Joy for our $" then I'm with you on a RB running a relatively open 7163 on 98 and loving life and just turning off instagram and pretending it is 2007 where this would be an incredibly insane setup.

I think the 7670 is too big for a 25. It was great on a 28 but lets be real, I was running 19psi on E85. I was barely stretching it's legs. I did one or two aborted runs (splitfires were giving up) and I was making 430+kw at 5000rpm. That all sounds good on paper, but the truth is it's well beyond where anyone would want to really run a fun, street, usable, daily, repeatable thing on an unopened motor. To make the most of this thing,  you will be running it close to max RPM. It's a 500KW turbo. Everything is a consumable at 500kw, built or not.

I remember Scotty in the past talking about how the GTX3071 was a better unit than the GTX3076 for this reason too. There was also a lot of rumblings favoring the GTX3576 over the GTX3076/GTX3582 too.  People love running things at 11/10ths for exhibition purposes, and then that filters down into "You should get this result all the time, forever".

Then people run them at less boost, on 98 etc and suddenly they are a bit laggy. Well no shit, if you are running 13psi there instead of old mate running 28psi there on E85 then you will make less power, and be in a different efficiency island as well. It is similar to people buying Hypergears and then not replicating Tao's setup.

I'd almost say get the open T3, bolt it to the stock manifold and see how you go for simplicity's sake. As always, think about what you want, then get the turbo for that application. People do not always speak long term about how these choices go out for them. Choose the least painful option, and it'll still be plenty painful enough!

[GTSBoy]

54 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

It is similar to people buying Hypergears and then not replicating Tao's setup.

I feel attacked!

[acsplit]

Ok here is my conundrum,

I got a 7670 IWG .92 T4 off an EVO, I am tossing up weather or not to keep the T4 split housing which means a spacer plate with small studs (like rb26 t2 size studs) or pony up for a T3 open as it looks like their will be plenty of clearence.

I have seen a couple of RB30 single cams with good response an number on relativly low boost but yet to finalise the solution for my rb25.

 

[GTSBoy]

T3 housing would seem the smart approach.

Have you tried to clock the compressor housing so the outlet points in a useful direction? Will that work with the wastegate actuator location?

[acsplit]

Yeah since taking those I tried clocking. It came with a custom wastegate bracket but can make it all work.

I will go back to a BW actuator for the stockish look

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

19 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

There was also a lot of rumblings favoring the GTX3576 over the GTX3076/GTX3582 too.  People love running things at 11/10ths for exhibition purposes, and then that filters down into "You should get this result all the time, forever".

Nope, it gets left at full kill on the track too. I don't turn it down, so not for exhibition purposes.

[CowsWithGuns]

23 hours ago, Lithium said:

I feel the cost and expense of a twin scroll EFR on an RB25 aiming for "only" 300kw may not age well and would be more inclined to go with an open housing 7163 if that was the direction.   

What am I missing here. It seems the cost of TS IWG 7163 is very similar to say, a vband IWG? The manifolds are the same, the turbo is ~$100 different... are there some other expenses of TS? Mind you it might get pretty expensive (emotionally) if I get pissed off by the choke and/or decide 350kw on E85 is for me 😛

Regarding my goals, I just put 300kw as a reference. I want 10000kw, and I want full boost at 1500 rpm 1 nanosecond after pressing the throttle, don't you??

I'm in a weird place. My current ATR45 build (did it just under a year ago) was tuned by... a 'reputable' tuner who totally shit the bed. Car would stall on clutch ins, my accel enrichment was running the default values, it would run lean (think 1.1 ) on part throttle/cruise at some rpm, and rich (0.9) at other rpms, the VCT was on at around 2000 but my experimenting found I had *way* more torque at 1500 with it on, oh and the knock sensors they installed served only for the ears, and aren't tuned in as a safety... hmm the cold tune sucks too! I sent it back, some of it was improved, so I got mad pissed and taught myself tuning from the HP academy course and fixed the majority of the above. But I'm not game to touch ignition timing or the fuel tables above 3000 rpm. Red line is the results (upgrading from nistune with a very old highflow turbo; blue line). Was verbally told that 240 on this dyno means about 270. Whatever. They told me (I agree) my IATs are insanely high so gonna get a plazmaman as part of this build.

The car sucks big balls until 4000 rpm, and then the turbo takes its sweet time to respond in the 3000 to 4500 range. Fun as past 4500.

I don't know what is the turbo's fault and what's the tunes fault, all I know is the 240-270 I have on the top end is pleasant enough (more would be good), but I'm there probably 2% of my driving time drive... and getting there takes an eternity. Looking at getting this next tune with the EFR at Brisbane Tuning and Turbo (he also recommended an EFR when I popped in last week, didn't specify housing), so fingers crossed.

A wise man would sell this shitbox and get a GR Yaris and be happy. I am not a wise man. We are 4 years in, the car will be respectable eventually, heavens as my witness.

[Full-Race Geoff]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:19 PM, Kinkstaah said:

Make the car useful. Summer is coming. Rule #1 has got to be "make sure the car does not annoy you, and gives smiles instead".  I now look at people who make 450kw and know the hassles that come with all of it, and smile and am happy to be off the crazy E85 crack train and running things at 101%.

Go 7163, go simple, run under max threshhold, kick the shit out of it, put on aircon, listen to music, enjoy life.

[Rand0b]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:52 PM, Lithium said:

 

On what kind of dyno?  On a hubber I'd expect so, spool should be pretty respectable but it's obviously a journal bearing turbo - the Airwerks range are decent but not the most (or least...) responsive under foot so it kinda depends on what you're comparing to.  Given the turbos aren't even in circulation yet it's hard to say how seriously they should be considered but if it helps, I'd not go for one if I was counting on it being all in under 4000rpm - but I'd also hope not too much later than that either.

saw this in a FB group 

was interesting the SX-R smaller brother doing this

with the SX-R low inertia wheel I would hope it to be right at the 4k mark as you had mentioned Lith

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Rand0b

[Lithium]

6 minutes ago, Rand0b said:

saw this in a FB group 

was interesting the SX-R smaller brother doing this

with the SX-R low inertia wheel I would hope it to be right at the 4k mark as you had mentioned Lith

 

Yeah, I've actually tuned a car using the S257SX-E "smaller brother" running a 1.15a/r divided hotside on a 2.3 4G63 and that made ~390kw @ hubs and was JUST hitting 1:1 exhaust vs intake manifold pressure at that point - definitely more in it but we called it there as it'd hit the target for the setup but the thing is an absolute beast, response etc is awesome.

Here's a clip of it in action to give an idea:

 

[Lithium]

PSA: seems FullRace have limited stock of one of the best turbos you could put on a car that also happens to be one of the hardest to get: https://www.full-race.com/borgwarner-efr-8474-turbo

Edited September 27, 2023 by Lithium

[StubbyFoil]

Man, I got the email from Full-Race that the 8474 was back in stock! Not even 30 minutes later when I checked, they were all sold out. I really wish to get my hands on one of these once my car is up and running with the Precision. I'm even pre-fabbing up coolant lines/fittings and running them looped so its just a downpipe change away from a turbo swap once I finally get one. Bump for more real world info on the 8474. I'm looking at the 1.45 housing for my Nitto 2.8/mild port head, GSC S1 cams, shimless bucket setup. ::Fingers crossed::