Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[sneakey pete]

Does it come with a doggo?

[iruvyouskyrine]

Mine did but can't guarantee yours will if you buy one from him [emoji14]

[MaximuSmurf]

Hi all, so I've got some niggly issue with my EFR setup I was hoping you kind hearted souls my be able to help me flesh out.

Basically I can't get this thing to hold boost accurately. As in there's a ~4-5psi drop from peak to redline. And I'm not confident the turbo back pressure issue will be fixed with EWG. There is some consensus that there's 'too much' pressure in the turbo rear housing. This is essentially pulling the internal gate open. This could probably be bandaided by going to EWG. However this may not actually reduce the pressure all that much, just make it easier to manage and hold boost levels... in which case high rear turbo pressure over time... seems like a bad thing for the setup to be coping with.

I'm a massive noob, I do a reasonable amount of the mech work myself, along with some friends who are smarter than me. I'm an IT guy so try to research the crap out of everything and have tried to make 'good choices' and choose quality parts for the setup. Car is my daily, it gets some circuit / drift / motorkhana track days too.

So my point immediately above is, I understand somethings I say may not make sense (because my understanding is lacking) and only going off what I've learnt thus far, more than happy to hear other peoples differing opinions.

Have attached some pics. Latest power, torque and boost sheets (initial low boost, current low boost, and high boost are the three lines). Also have one which shows a bunch of psi runs, one grey line in the middle is pressure taken from the cold side between intercooler and throttle body (all other pressure are hotside, usually from turbo comp housing) so it seems to stay flat after the cooler.

I've removed the tuner name from sheets just so this doesn't turn into a "Your tuner is shit" pissing contest.

 

Car - Nissan 200sx S15

Engine Setup:

 - Forged SR20DET (pistons, rods, rings, bearings)
 - Tomei Poncam 256 with 'Performance' branded valve springs
 - Still using VCT
 - Pod to 3" intake (to 2.5" at turbo inlet)
 - 2.5" intercooler piping with brand new Aeroflow core
 - Full race T4 Twin Scrollt EWG manifold (EWG are blocked with vband plates)
 - Borg Warner EFR7163 T4 in, vband out
 - Turbosmart Dual Port Acuator with 26psi spring
 - 3" turbo back exhaust
 - Greddy Profec B Spec II boost controller with original 3 port solenoid

Have tried:

 - Using original BW 'high boost' canistor. Only held 7psi, 10psi with more preload
 - Upgraded intercooler core (old Blitz one was a slight restriction).
 - Test exhaust back pressure in wideband port (up near o2 sensor). Only 3psi pressure which should be fine.
 - Dropped exhaust after front/dump pipe to ensure was no exhaust restriction.
 - Running new Turbosmart actuator in dual port and single port mode (performs about the same)
 - Have EFR speed sensor hooked up and that's only hitting ~112,000rpm at the current peak of ~28psi (has a 150,600rpm 'max' from BW

Thoughts about testing next:

 - Borrow a mate's 2 x 38mm gates and whack a temp screamer on
 - Thorough checks / testing for Vac leak somewhere (suggestions on 'best' way to do this??)
 - Put more springs in the Turbosmart internal gate (I fear this will help but hide the pressure issue and reduce engines life)
 - Sell the car, buy a Hyundai Excel and never worry about boost drop again?

 

 

[GTSBoy]

It would be bestest to find out what the ex manifold pressure actually is.  Given that you have blocked off EWG positions, it should be near trivial to make something up that gives you a pressure tap there, hook to a boost gauge and load it up.  That one piece of information will tell you reams about whether the problem is upstream the turbine or somewhere else.

[MaximuSmurf]

It would be bestest to find out what the ex manifold pressure actually is.  Given that you have blocked off EWG positions, it should be near trivial to make something up that gives you a pressure tap there, hook to a boost gauge and load it up.  That one piece of information will tell you reams about whether the problem is upstream the turbine or somewhere else.

I did forget to add that. That's also on the list. Will be adding a pressure gauge onto one of the block off plates.

[R_34]

Is it me or something wrong with the grey boost line ?

You can't have more pressure after intercooler than before to me. I don't want to be insulting or anything but you're sure that you picked up boost from the comp housing and not the intake manifold ?

Stock butterfly on blacktop SR is quite small (around 40mm from memory) so having the pressure picked up after it and having a solid boost taper like you do would makes more sense as the butterfly will be a restriction at that power level.

What rpm gauge are you using with the rpm sensor ?

112k rpm at 28psi is also strange, the 7163 shouldn't be able to make that much boost below 120k rpm. I think something's wrong with the gauge, maybe the number of pales. The 6758 and 7163 both only have 12 pales compressor wheels, all other EFR have 14 pales compressor wheels.

If the gauge is wrongly configured then the real compressor speed is around 131k which is more where it should be at your boost level (the 28 psi run).

 

How did you hooked up the twin port actuator in twin port configuration with your 3 port boost solenoid ? I find strange that it didn't made any difference. It would means that this is not the exhaust back pressure the culprit.

Are your actuator correctly placed ?

The actuator rod should really pull the straightest possible, ideally without the locking nuts you should be able to install and remove the swing valve assembly with just a finger without the rod having to move at all.

Is the swing valve moving freely ? No play ?

For the leak testing  I install a plug with a tire valve at the silicone adapter going at the outlet comp housing. I have acces to an air pressure regulator hookable to a compressor so I use that but you could be fine with a tire pressure inflator if you're cautious with it. Make the plus on the comp housing with a good lip so it does not blow away under pressure. Those things tends to fly all over the place and may cause some damage/hurt somenone.

 

As GTSBoy said hook up a pressure gauge on the exhaust side to see what the exhaust pressure is first. We'll see from there.

Try to measure both scrolls to see if there is a difference wetween them, not that it is relevant to your problem but it's still interesting to see if bw did the scrolls A/R right.

[MaximuSmurf]

First of all, thanks heaps for all the feedback.

That does make complete sense re: the grey line. I must have misheard or the test with that line must have been a little different to what I recall.

We tried a few different configuration of reading boost. Had a couple of different gauges going at the same time at one point to make sure things were reading the 'same' as we expected.

Boost solenoid was tried a couple of different ways to make sure it was running and setup 'correctly'. Attached is the Greddy Profec manual of how to setup for external wastegate (I believe same as dual port internal).

It appears you're right on the blades. Mate wrote an app that reads the speed sensor however the BW EFR manual we have (for 7163) implies it's 14 blades (attached). He just updated the app so read as 12 blades, will check tomorrow and should see numbers closer to what you referenced.

Will check out the actuator throw. Seems pretty straight. Uses the standard EFR bracket, and it's the Turbosmart one specifically designed for a B1 framed EFR turbo.

Yep will be getting the pressure tests done... soon (been an expensive couple of weeks troubleshooting this). 

 

 

[Mick_o]

Thats a tricky 1 id have to say good advice given so far. 

Its seems unlikely the actuator is the problem cause they are a proven performer. 

Also looks like its ramping up onto boost quite hard and fast even if your source for boost may or may not be right. 

What size rear housing are you running mate?

At a wild stab with data supplied im wondering if your boost control settings need a tweak.. Probably 1 of the easiest things to check and eliminate also ?

[MaximuSmurf]

Running a 0.80 rear. Largest and only size in the T4 TS range unfortunately otherwise I think I would have gone bigger.

[burn4005]

one simple thing I should bring up is you know that an internal gate actuator vs external gate actuator has the ports the opposite way around? also you can check the diaphragm or shaft seal of the actuator isnt leaking. you can suck on each vac connection to the gate and confirm it holds vacuum against your tongue. you can also test the solenoid valve works by blowing into the COM port while giving it 12v. it should switch from NO to NC.

it should be plumbed like this:

Compressor cover port -> TOP Actuator port

Compressor cover port -> NC Port of Solenoid

COM Port of Solenoid -> BOTTOM Actuator port

also, you should be able to feel the solenoid buzzing during a dyno pull, but if your boost target is 26psi and that is your spring pressure, dont expect it do be doing much to only hold a 26psi target.

if the above is all good, I'd be looking at your boost controller settings and then leaks. to rule out a mechanical/pneumatic issue I'd set an ECU boost cut as a protection and then wind up the boost controller so its output was 100% duty (assuming its working). alternatively just bypass the solenoid and connect the boost line straight to the bottom port of the actuator which will hold it shut. then CAREFULLY use the throttle to control your boost during a run and see if it still tapers off or you can hold it.

probably wise to do this on a dyno.

if the gate is then definitely staying shut and you still can't hold boost you've either got an exhaust manifold leak or a boost leak. but I'm confident that isn't your issue.

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by burn4005

[Full-Race Geoff]

-do a boost leak test

-check for exhaust leaks (very likely)

-get turbo speed reading properly

-get preturbine backpressure reading

 

report back

[MaximuSmurf]

Did a test after I got the actuator removing the boost controller all together to test what pressure the actuator alone would hold. Connect comp cover direct to actuator. The actuator holds about 16.5psi with the 26psi springs in it. Assumed drop due to back pressure pulling gate open which they don't account for when setting up the actuators.... Right?

I'll double check boost controller ports when I get home tonight. But it was changed around a few times and I'm quite confident that plumbed in correctly. Also changed all small hose lengths a few times so don't think there's any leaks there.

Cars pretty quiet on idle with no audible noise leaks so I don't think there's any exhaust leaks there.

Just updated up to run 'real' turbo rpm speeds. Will do some testing now.

Pre turbine pressure testing will be done in the next week or so when I can get back down there to get it fitted and back on the dyno.

[GTRNUR]

Has anyone ordered from Full Race in the US recently? 

How did you go with import duty and customs, or was it sent USPS and somehow slipped through ?

I'm about to make a purchase and am contemplating purchasing from the US direct, but if it gets nailed at the border the price saving will probably evaporate...

 

 

 

[MaximuSmurf]

1 minute ago, GTRNUR said:

Has anyone ordered from Full Race in the US recently? 

How did you go with import duty and customs, or was it sent USPS and somehow slipped through ?

I'm about to make a purchase and am contemplating purchasing from the US direct, but if it gets nailed at the border the price saving will probably evaporate...

 

 

 

Sorry I bought my mani locally off someone who had already imported. Probably depends on what you're after. I was under the impression you're almost certain to get pinged at customs these days. Especially if it's one package and valued over $1000.

 

It does seem Hypertune were doing some good package deals. Low or high mount SR20 T4 TS manifold AND a BW Turbo (7163 for example) for about 3.5k... that's a damn good deal to me. Wish I knew about it when I bought all my stuff.

[iruvyouskyrine]

Sorry I bought my mani locally off someone who had already imported. Probably depends on what you're after. I was under the impression you're almost certain to get pinged at customs these days. Especially if it's one package and valued over $1000.
 
It does seem Hypertune were doing some good package deals. Low or high mount SR20 T4 TS manifold AND a BW Turbo (7163 for example) for about 3.5k... that's a damn good deal to me. Wish I knew about it when I bought all my stuff.

Where are these deals advertised? A couple of weeks ago hypertune wanted 3k just for a 7163 when I asked.

[MaximuSmurf]

Where are these deals advertised? A couple of weeks ago hypertune wanted 3k just for a 7163 when I asked.

Haven't seen them advertised. Yes that pretty standard or even good turbo pricing. Ask them for package deal with Mani.

[iruvyouskyrine]

Too late now as I already bought a turbo, so this was just over the phone pricing?

[MaximuSmurf]

Too late now as I already bought a turbo, so this was just over the phone pricing?

A mate bought it through them. He was in the same boat. Ended up selling his brand new turbo and buying that package deal from them as it saved him so much on the manifold.

[steve200b]

I got stung with customs on my last purchase. Good luck

[VFRegal]

On 8/2/2017 at 1:15 PM, MaximuSmurf said:

Running a 0.80 rear. Largest and only size in the T4 TS range unfortunately otherwise I think I would have gone bigger.

Mate. Do as Geoff said. Boost leak test first. Try more preload. Check actuator plumbing. Try 4 port Mac valve. I also had good success with avcr as I could adjust duty over rpm range.

The0.8 housing is a bit average for holding top end so don't get too hung up on it. They are good numbers for sr20. 

For me I had bad boost leak. Seems to be much better now but need to get back on dyno. Travelling now until mid August hopefully after then have more results.

Good luck