Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[RICE RACING]

Evo almost ready.

 

[Lithium]

38 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

Lith it sounds like your do a bit of this?

What is your limit for map/tip or what do you find in experience on the types of engines you do starts to yield lower results and increase negatives in relation to such parameters like say knock or another metric.

I am definitely getting deeper, though I'm only starting to play with setups that have THAT much data collection.... so I can't give numbers yet but soon enough.  I've not questioned anything you've said on you having an unacceptable bad MAP/TIP, at all - I'm just saying that in lieu of not having any of that data, I'm speculating that there could be a case that the compressor side is actually at least partly responsible for the TIP getting too high.   

From a theory point of view, I'd argue that once I had the data (or what I've extrapolated from tuning without the MAP/TIP info) is that it would really depend on what the setup is and what I was doing with it.  For example, with an E85 street car which may be used for the occasional drag meet or blast through the hills I'd tolerate a much higher MAP/TIP than perhaps for an endurance race car or drag car.    Lots of factors to consider, not least "is it stopping me from making more power? "  but also response and reliability - though you clearly know that.    On different fuels, different engine configs etc I'm sure that an acceptable ratio could be different and no doubt the more data and experience the better in terms of deciding what to go with to be best for that setup.

If we had a hypothetical RB30/EFR9180 type setup lets say for sake of argument if you were running an engine that is crossing past 1:1 just before 6000rpm currently then the compressor starts plummeting in efficiency then it could end up running with >1.4 TIP/MAP ratio and climbing steeply by 7000rpm which I would call out of hand.    In the exact same scenario (I'm just playing with math and not swearing this is correct, but could be an indication) an EFR9280 could for sake of argument be at 1.2 TIP/MAP ratio at the same place and climbing, but FAR more steadily than the EFR9180 using the exact same hotside.  That hypothetical outcome is still obviously not perfect, but I would say would make a HUGE difference.  

Edited November 28, 2018 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

2 minutes ago, Lithium said:

I am definitely getting deeper, though I'm only starting to play with setups that have THAT much data collection.... so I can't give numbers yet but soon enough.  I've not questioned anything you've said on you having an unacceptable bad MAP/TIP, at all - I'm just saying that in lieu of not having any of that data, I'm speculating that there could be a case that the compressor side is actually at least partly responsible for the TIP getting too high.   

From a theory point of view, I'd argue that once I had the data (or what I've extrapolated from tuning without the MAP/TIP info) is that it would really depend on what the setup is and what I was doing with it.  For example, with an E85 street car which may be used for the occasional drag meet or blast through the hills I'd tolerate a much higher MAP/TIP than perhaps for an endurance race car or drag car.    Lots of factors to consider, not least "is it stopping me from making more power? "  but also response and reliability - though you clearly know that. 

If we had a hypothetical RB30/EFR9180 type setup lets say for sake of argument if you were running an engine that is crossing past 1:1 just before 6000rpm currently then the compressor starts plummeting in efficiency then it could end up running with >1.4 TIP/MAP ratio and climbing steeply by 7000rpm which I would call out of hand.    In the exact same scenario an EFR9280 could for sake of argument be at 1.2 TIP/MAP ratio at the same place and climbing, but FAR more steadily than the EFR9180.  That hypothetical is still obviously not perfect, but I would say would make a HUGE difference.  

I like to talk in pressure ratio across the engine so to me personally it makes more sense to refer to it as map/tip.

On some engines (weird shitbox like wankel or high over lap reciprocating) the relationship of say if you had 0.700 it does not necessarily translate to a 30% power loss due to pressure differential across the engine. So some are effected allot more than others. What I have found in my limited experiences is there is a correlation to lower output and non linearity still staying on compressor map as this ratio worsens. I don't know if the 9280 would help much?????? May try it as an interim test anyway since we know what the 9180 does, keep all other variables the same.

The concern is as I said way back, that the inline 6cyl, that we run so efficiently, even in this capacity and flow rate combined with twin gate, horse cock manifolds blah blah, does not have the ideal response like an inefficient wankle (read wasted energy in exhaust!) so potentially the larger compressor I cant see helping that situation, and a few posts back, the car makes enough power really as is.

 

LS swap?  :P

[Lithium]

9 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

I like to talk in pressure ratio across the engine so to me personally it makes more sense to refer to it as map/tip.

On some engines (weird shitbox like wankel or high over lap reciprocating) the relationship of say if you had 0.700 it does not necessarily translate to a 30% power loss due to pressure differential across the engine. So some are effected allot more than others. What I have found in my limited experiences is there is a correlation to lower output and non linearity still staying on compressor map as this ratio worsens. I don't know if the 9280 would help much?????? May try it as an interim test anyway since we know what the 9180 does, keep all other variables the same.

The concern is as I said way back, that the inline 6cyl, that we run so efficiently, even in this capacity and flow rate combined with twin gate, horse cock manifolds blah blah, does not have the ideal response like an inefficient wankle (read wasted energy in exhaust!) so potentially the larger compressor I cant see helping that situation, and a few posts back, the car makes enough power really as is.

 

LS swap? 

Yeah I normally think in PR across the engine, I only flipped it around for the benefit of others who might be reading and may feel more comfortable thinking 1.4x higher exhaust pressure.

Haha I wasn't trying to convince you that you should be running an EFR9280, I was just going back to where this all started - which was the release of the EFR9280 and how justified it's existence may be.  Maybe the EFR8474 would be more rewarding in that case.....or LS swap...

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

1 minute ago, Lithium said:

Yeah I normally think in PR across the engine, I only flipped it around for the benefit of others who might be reading and may feel more comfortable thinking 1.4x higher exhaust pressure.

Haha I wasn't trying to convince you that you should be running an EFR9280, I was just going back to where this all started - which was the release of the EFR9280 and how justified it's existence may be.  Maybe the EFR8474 would be more rewarding in that case.....or LS swap...

 

Yeah I get what you are saying, I think if more of them calibrated their own engines they would see merit in referring to it as what happens across the head/ports. It was interesting seeing it myself first time I did this 15 years ago, with the Automagic inside the shitbox Autronics we all loved back then.  Now just set up my own tables for it on the ITB boosted set ups.

 

I like the way you approach it personally, its all good talking about max output, but lots and lots loose sight of why we do this crap, its to have a quick and durable car that is enjoyable and does not require a boat anchor up front, leave them for the mardigras parade where they belong.

[RICE RACING]

Not just me who referes to them as 'boat anchors' either its common even on top end activities LOL

 

[burn4005]

You can do a fair bit of testing around engine pressure ratios with an orifice plate or butterfly as a restriction in the exhaust. Every psi of extra pressure post turbine will be likely ~3x that amount in the exhaust manifold when you factor in the operating turbine expansion ratio.

[Lithium]

6 hours ago, RICE RACING said:

Yeah I get what you are saying, I think if more of them calibrated their own engines they would see merit in referring to it as what happens across the head/ports. It was interesting seeing it myself first time I did this 15 years ago, with the Automagic inside the shitbox Autronics we all loved back then.  Now just set up my own tables for it on the ITB boosted set ups.

 

I like the way you approach it personally, its all good talking about max output, but lots and lots loose sight of why we do this crap, its to have a quick and durable car that is enjoyable and does not require a boat anchor up front, leave them for the mardigras parade where they belong.

Nice.  Alas the only car I've tuned which has an ECU with the ability to handle IMAP/EMAP etc doesn't yet have EMAP sensors - not that I'd necessarily tune it for that, but at the very least it would be nice to throw some math into i2 and try and learn some stuff.  I'm mainly going on theory at this stage.  I started out playing with modifying Hondas (/ NA tuning) and tried to learn as much as possible and try and apply some of the way of thinking to turbocharging, while having the luxury of being able to use turbocharger matching and tuning to make trade offs one could only dream about when running purely "atmospheric pressure" on both sides of the engine.   It really does help learn things when you have people who have experience and data and are willing to share some, so thanks!

+1 on the mutual appreciation of how things are done, I do feel that it's being appreciated more in some areas these days than it previously was though - as people aim for bigger power levels they have to work harder to make things not be piles of shit to get power out of, and get it to the ground.   Hopefully we all keep learning, getting wiser, and more cool technologies keep getting developed to better allow us to geek out and make things previously inconceivable 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

8 hours ago, Lithium said:

I am definitely getting deeper, though I'm only starting to play with setups that have THAT much data collection....

353 channels on the R34 and only 312 on the RX7 :P almost run out of bandwidth to do much more, but we get most of the stuff that is required.

[AntsR33GTR]

Thought i would throw this up for peoples interest.

I have been working on a fairly basic build of my R33GTR (in the builds section). Due to budget reasons I decided to try one of the BW SX-E S300 8376 turbos. Yes I know 8374EFRs are what everyone recommends but budget did not allow it at the time of purchase. There is very little info on the BW SX-E turbo stuff being used on RBs so thought I would share my results to date.

Build:

Completely stock RB26 
Link G4+ (inc Fuel press, Oil press and Fuel temp sensors and controlling boost)
BW SX-E S300 8376 (.91 T4 divided A/R rear)
Sinco T4 Divided manifold
Turbosmart 60mm WG
Seimens 875cc injectors on aftermarket rail
Aeromotive FP reg
Walbro 460 with mandatory rewire
4" Dump off turbo then into 3.5" exhaust (no cat)
R35 Coils
Platinum Racing/Franlkin Engineering Trigger kit
Stock intercooler

Car is running 98 pump (E85 is not an option for me due to lack of availability sadly)

The car has just been on the dyno and results were:

305KW ATW on 14PSI (Wastegate spring pressure)
385KW ATW on 20PSI 

We limited the boost to 20PSI due to the engine being completely stock. While the power is solid the turbo is pretty lazy on this setup, I was hoping it would be a little better but it was always going to be a dice roll. We discovered a fairly significant boost leak from the manifold which may have hurt response slightly. However it is looking like this setup may be a bit big for a completely stock RB26. Perhaps an RB30 or a 26 with head work/cams etc would wake it up a bit earlier. We have not played with cam gears as yet and there looks to be a smaller rear housing option (.83) I can also try otherwise I will have to switch to an EFR to get the response I am after.

Results:

[SimonR32]

By the looks of that, basically anything you could pick is going to get a better result. EFR8374 if you're rich, Precision 6262, Garrett GTX35 etc etc. I'd put money on a old Garret T04Z making more power and being a lot more responsive.

Smash a decent intercooler in there as well

[s14 rb25det]

Been waiting for this! need too fabricate a new downpipe and some boost pipes?  hope this turbo will spool fast!

[Lithium]

7 minutes ago, s14 rb25det said:

Been waiting for this! need too fabricate a new downpipe and some boost pipes?  hope this turbo will spool fast!

 

Any more info? Which EFR is it?

[BakemonoRicer]

Budgets....forget budgets when building a GTR.

Do it once do it right. Just about everyone who takes a budget option ends up unhappy.

[Lithium]

32 minutes ago, BakemonoRicer said:

Budgets....forget budgets when building a GTR.

Do it once do it right. Just about everyone who takes a budget option ends up unhappy.

Also helps to make sure everything is working correctly, and the turbo fits the purpose.   That particular result I'm pretty sure there is something not performing correctly, and it's also too big a turbo for the setup/target power level.

If you put an EFR8374 onto a bone stock RB26 (stock cams included) and a major boost leak then it's not going to be an inspiring result either.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

29 minutes ago, BakemonoRicer said:

Budgets....forget budgets when building a GTR.

Do it once do it right. Just about everyone who takes a budget option ends up unhappy.

Apply that to any car, sub system many choose to use  :)

Classic case someone will by a Halaltech shitbox, and use the excuse 'that is what my tuner knows' ironically spend as much as you would get a proper ECU for, in the end you have a world of pain, and an inferior item that you will always be reminded of how shit it really is. When all you needed to do is open up your wallet and use your brains.

See it all the time, in general the aftermarket scene is just dumb, its all I can put it down as.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

Classic case someone will by a Halaltech shitbox, and use the excuse 'that is what my tuner knows' ironically spend as much as you would get a proper ECU for, in the end you have a world of pain, 

Are you referring to the old E6x E8x junk? If so Haltech is nothing like it used to be. 

[Lithium]

2 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

Classic case someone will by a Halaltech shitbox, and use the excuse 'that is what my tuner knows' ironically spend as much as you would get a proper ECU for, in the end you have a world of pain, and an inferior item that you will always be reminded of how shit it really is. When all you needed to do is open up your wallet and use your brains.

See it all the time, in general the aftermarket scene is just dumb, its all I can put it down as.

Flipside of that is you get people who spend lots of money on a few quality parts but match or apply them poorly, and naturally often a lot of those expensive parts get ripped for underperforming when they've been sabotaged by poor implementation.

Imho a well put together setup using "cheaper" parts (NOT to be confused with shit parts) will much more often than not outperform a setup using all top brand stuff with no well considered/implemented plan.  

 

[RICE RACING]

For this amount of money you can buy a real computer, I don't get it other than people they use have no idea what is out there?

 

 

[RICE RACING]

4 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Flipside of that is you get people who spend lots of money on a few quality parts but match or apply them poorly, and naturally often a lot of those expensive parts get ripped for underperforming when they've been sabotaged by poor implementation.

Imho a well put together setup using "cheaper" parts (NOT to be confused with shit parts) will much more often than not outperform a setup using all top brand stuff with no well considered/implemented plan.  

 

Maybe find someone who finished Yr12 and passed some core subjects like mathematics, physics and chemistry? 

Its not that hard honestly and I am a dumb kunt.

I agree there are max homo types out there who will buy quality stuff and think that is it, but there are many who use hyped up stuff and get short changed when there are far better quality items out there at ironically the same prices LOL.

Edited December 12, 2018 by RICE RACING