Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[RICE RACING]

ok well just did 12 back to back 0 to 220+kph runs, average 100kph to 200kph run listed below in ~ 5.658 seconds. Car is reliable and no one hit wonder EFR makes power to 9k rpm not a problem, should rev it harder but its not a rotary so keeping it real.

Very fast car, still no need for flat shifting, which would drop a good chunk of time in my experience, may try that later on once a few hours on load are accumulated.

Some logs.... Bit of boost potential left, enough turbo speed margin too,

 

[welshy_32ZILA]

Usmair, was your car tuned by JEM? i think seeing your dynograph gave me the info that helped me change my mind in going a 9180 after seeing your power curve. Makes ridiculous power but I was looking to see target pressure in before ~5k. Yours seemed somewhere around 5.8k ish from memory. Keen to see how the 84 goes, hopefully sacrifice a small amount of spool against the 83 to outflow the 91 at 30psi.

[usmair]

3 hours ago, welshy_32ZILA said:

Usmair, was your car tuned by JEM? i think seeing your dynograph gave me the info that helped me change my mind in going a 9180 after seeing your power curve. Makes ridiculous power but I was looking to see target pressure in before ~5k. Yours seemed somewhere around 5.8k ish from memory. Keen to see how the 84 goes, hopefully sacrifice a small amount of spool against the 83 to outflow the 91 at 30psi.

yes it is tuned at JEM... i get 35psi around 5300RPM and am revving it to 8500RPM... in hindsight i would have stayed with the 8374 on a 2.6. It may not have the top end grunt but its just a much nice street car with a broader power band.

i'm tempted to try the 8474... i might run the numbers to see how much it'll cost me.. if its bearable

[Full-Race Geoff]

agreed.  i had the 9180 on my 2.6L and it didnt work nearly as well as the 9180 on a 3.0L.  8474 is what i will use on my 2.6L this time around.  RB26 stock stroke is not great at spooling big single turbos

[burn4005]

Geoff I'm curious about how the 8474 is being marketed by Borg warner against the 9174. Or is is replacing it in the lineup going forward? 

Edited February 20, 2019 by burn4005

[Full-Race Geoff]

in my opinion, the 8474 will make the 9174 obsolete. 

the 9280 looks to be the big boy that we always hoped the 9180 would be.  It moves way more air, at lower shaft speeds via much larger compressor inducer.  Keep in mind the 9180 was custom specced for indycar and once the teams switched to twin 7163... the 9180 became less relevant.  especially considering how easy it was to overspeed

the 9274 is still more resistant to overspeed than 9280, so 9274 + 1.45 a/r will continue to be my recommendation for people that will push their setup as hard as can be.  it will have higher TIP than 9280 but everything is a compromise... you just need to figure out what works best for you and your goals

 

[Mick_o]

4 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

in my opinion, the 8474 will make the 9174 obsolete. 

the 9280 looks to be the big boy that we always hoped the 9180 would be.  It moves way more air, at lower shaft speeds via much larger compressor inducer.  Keep in mind the 9180 was custom specced for indycar and once the teams switched to twin 7163... the 9180 became less relevant.  especially considering how easy it was to overspeed

the 9274 is still more resistant to overspeed than 9280, so 9274 + 1.45 a/r will continue to be my recommendation for people that will push their setup as hard as can be.  it will have higher TIP than 9280 but everything is a compromise... you just need to figure out what works best for you and your goals

 

Thats a very big claim Geoff. So you think the 74mm turbine is still actually capable of pushing 31lb more than its original intended design? 

Why are BW even bothering with the 80mm Turbine if the 74mm seems to have all the answers?

[RICE RACING]

Old mate Lith and I covered it a few pages back, one thing to have XYZ psi on a dyno sheet, totally another thing to list what you have on rpm acel rate of 4000rpm/s, 2000rpm/s, 1000rpm/s.

Most dyno sheets are homo for this reason alone as they do not convey what the road driving experience is like at all well. You could for argument sake make 36psi at 5200rpm, but in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears (say 0 to 240kph) make vastly less, and unless you then have a dog box with flat shift feature then you fall off it and its Elton John Aids for all  

Far better to have a 800bhp engine, that needs 40psi boost, than a nugget with 'big turbo bro' and 28psi cause 1:1 PR across the head like a drag car. Guess what kunt, its not a drag car lol...... you actually want to drive it on the street or up in the mountains and have fun, not see who has the biggest pill press or meth lab.

[welshy_32ZILA]

Isnt your rpm and accel rate dependant on load/traction? Ie the more load required, the slower the rate? Hence people try to replicate the accel rate the car would achieve on the street/strip vs what they set the dyno too? so that it gives an accurate amount load on the car to tune with?

[Lithium]

14 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

in my opinion, the 8474 will make the 9174 obsolete. 

the 9280 looks to be the big boy that we always hoped the 9180 would be.  It moves way more air, at lower shaft speeds via much larger compressor inducer.  Keep in mind the 9180 was custom specced for indycar and once the teams switched to twin 7163... the 9180 became less relevant.  especially considering how easy it was to overspeed

the 9274 is still more resistant to overspeed than 9280, so 9274 + 1.45 a/r will continue to be my recommendation for people that will push their setup as hard as can be.  it will have higher TIP than 9280 but everything is a compromise... you just need to figure out what works best for you and your goals

 

Are there any results to share beyond Eric Urness's Evo with the EFR8474?   The 8474 definitely seems like the most exciting things to happen in the EFR (/turbo?) world for some time on initial impressions.   

The EFR9274 has hints of being a gigantic mismatch, though I'll watch with interest - Dan Burkett posted about putting one on his drift Supra last year and announced it was going on the dyno... then all went VERY quiet about it afterwards.  Usually when that happens instead of the "Wow this turbo is awesome!" kinds of things the prior posts looked to be set up for it turns out that something didn't go as well as planned, so it's hard not to read things into that.

Very very curious about the EFR9280, the 9180's compressor leaves a bit to be desired - I'd have liked to have just seen a similar sized compressor with the map filled out nicely would have been a great thing, if the 74mm version doesn't give away too much response and the hotside can keep up then it could be a bit of a game changer as well.

 

[RICE RACING]

^ It is borderline the wrong turbo for a 2.3lt at 8+k rpm that makes 100bhp/lt/bar when set up to be responsive AND powerful. So no way in fark it will work on a decent 2JZ engine (caveat is decent, which most drifters are not lol).

Personally always much better choice to use the right size turbine wheel for the job than to slap on a stupid size turbine housing.

We run the 9180's way past their rated speed and not broken one, but again said it many times, you need an ECU that is 'proven' to do this in reality not on paper or the interwebz of shit that makes all the difference.

[Deano 1]

when's these new 9274 and 9280 gunna be available to buy? seams like they been talking about them for months now. 

[Lithium]

16 hours ago, RICE RACING said:

^ It is borderline the wrong turbo for a 2.3lt at 8+k rpm that makes 100bhp/lt/bar when set up to be responsive AND powerful. So no way in fark it will work on a decent 2JZ engine (caveat is decent, which most drifters are not lol).

We run the 9180's way past their rated speed and not broken one, but again said it many times, you need an ECU that is 'proven' to do this in reality not on paper or the interwebz of shit that makes all the difference.

Turns out they mentioned in a short snippet in a video that they touched 1000whp on a US dyno with the EFR9274, then dropped it back slightly.

And yeah, I've mentioned before I know folks who have pushed 9180s off the map and are still running them fine without failure - that max rpm thing is nothing to do with "max turbine speed", it's actually a number that they came up with for determining max compressor wheel speed.  The EFR9174 vs EFR9180 "higher max rpm thing" is nonsense.

From Borg Warner's own analysis of expected life time of an aluminium compressor while adhering to different maximum tip speeds:

As we've agreed before, essentially with racing etc "power is nothing without control" leaks through to parts picking, ECU and calibration of the whole lot.   Using data and managing the variables you should be able to work out a balance between pushing hard enough to justify the parts and not so hard you don't get an acceptable amount of use.  Pretty much what Borg Warner were doing when they decided on their own limits they suggested for the max tip speeds.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

Nice ^

A definitive 'turbine will snap off kunt at this speed' would be nice lol....... cause at the moment I am just guessing.

This is the BIG limiting factor in the GTR (what this thread and site is all about), its response is homo, but its also speed limited and we are WAY WAY! off the end of their recommendation. Really funny thing is have half a dozen cars spread across all kinds of uses with customers ranging race car (not drug racer lol) to high end road cars, and all of them deliver the same performance ironically which is kind of funny! but frustrating at the same time ! Each one has its own unique limitations, some excessive mapTIP ratios others way over speed, and most specific power is average.

Not saying EFR's are homo far from it! they do seem to have a good balance of response to power, but I don't have time to break the turbo's finding out what the real limits are either specifically to do with tip speeds

[RICE RACING]

13 hours ago, Deano 1 said:

when's these new 9274 and 9280 gunna be available to buy? seams like they been talking about them for months now. 

^ Call Geoff (FULL RACE) or send him an email, he is by far the most reputable one to ask about this in my experience.... re: FACT v's FICTION

[sneakey pete]

1 hour ago, Lithium said:

From Borg Warner's own analysis of expected life time of an aluminium compressor while adhering to different maximum tip speeds:

As we've agreed before, essentially with racing etc "power is nothing without control" leaks through to parts picking, ECU and calibration of the whole lot.   Using data and managing the variables you should be able to work out a balance between pushing hard enough to justify the parts and not so hard you don't get an acceptable amount of use.  Pretty much what Borg Warner were doing when they decided on their own limits they suggested for the max tip speeds.

Id point out that the lowest Km rating there is 250000kms or so. Eg for any of us there is going to be no discernible difference if you run any of those tip speeds. Also doesn't specify ow they get a km rating, eg is that turbo full boost all the time at a high speed or an 'average use case' km?

[Lithium]

8 minutes ago, sneakey pete said:

Id point out that the lowest Km rating there is 250000kms or so. Eg for any of us there is going to be no discernible difference if you run any of those tip speeds. Also doesn't specify ow they get a km rating, eg is that turbo full boost all the time at a high speed or an 'average use case' km?

Get among it
http://www.turbos.borgwarner.com/tools/download.aspx?t=document&r=107&d=109

[JGTC]

Kudos has stock and are clearing them at good rates from what i can see?

https://www.facebook.com/Kudos.Motorsports/posts/10156659882236265

 

Kudos Motorsports

January 11 · 

-=Borg Warner EFR Turbocharger Clearance=-

We're over stocked on Borg Warner EFR 9180 & 8374 turbochargers, we have both internally & externally gates units on-shelf @ prices that will not be repeated.

179357 - EFR 8374-C (0.92 A/R, T4 Split, Internally Gated) - $3,190.00
179393 - EFR 8374-D (1.05 A/R, T4 Split, Externally Gated) - $3,030.50
12809880000 - EFR 9180-C (0.92 A/R, T4 Split, Internally Gated) - $3,300.00
179394 - EFR 9180-D (1.05 A/R, T4 Split, Externally Gated) - $3,030.50

We have limited stock and there will be no holds.

[Lithium]

6 minutes ago, JGTC said:

Kudos has stock and are clearing them at good rates from what i can see?

 

If you are referring to the question above asking about stock, I think they were talking about the black series EFRs - not the original series like Kudos are advertising

[RICE RACING]

EVO is going mint, ~40psi boost, 3rd gear transients below, 100-150 in sub 2 seconds range.

This EFR combo makes over 400awkw from 6k rpm and near its max over 2000rpm range with peak power all the way to red line of 9k rpm, results in a really fast car (not just a peak power dyno whore).

Somewhere near 800bhp engine set up, whatever it is its fast, reliable and now proving to be durable too, nearly 18 minutes on load so far.