Lets talk Open Wheelers/Lightweight NA track cars.

[No Crust Racing]

Are you talking Evo 7 or Lotus 7?

 

[Dale FZ1]

31 minutes ago, djr81 said:

Just buy a 7.  Cheap as you like or as expensive as you want it to be.  Plus they are very quick on the right hands.  Not Radical quick but it the track has corners they will more often than not beat a Skyline.  Their aero is a bit like a brick wall, however.

Agreed - to a point.

There's a LOT of variability in chassis and suspension in these clubman things.  Some can be pretty close to ok/good, others can be a long way wide of the mark especially if it's been an ICV.  And the key to their speed is all in the chassis + a driver to exploit it. 

Went a reasonable way down this track about 18 months ago, still reckon it's a good track but would take time to get things right. 

I prefer the idea of turn-key purchase, but reckon there'd be a fair bit of investigating what the chassis/suspension is like, and probably an amount of re-engineering.  Time and $$ but the result is a hell of a good thing that with ~130rwkW and running on 205 section tyres can eat almost anything that "average" people can afford to buy/run. Should really shine on technical tracks where speeds are sub 180km/h.

[No Crust Racing]

Got any examples? 

[djr81]

11 minutes ago, Dale FZ1 said:

Agreed - to a point.

There's a LOT of variability in chassis and suspension in these clubman things.  Some can be pretty close to ok/good, others can be a long way wide of the mark especially if it's been an ICV.  And the key to their speed is all in the chassis + a driver to exploit it. 

Went a reasonable way down this track about 18 months ago, still reckon it's a good track but would take time to get things right. 

I prefer the idea of turn-key purchase, but reckon there'd be a fair bit of investigating what the chassis/suspension is like, and probably an amount of re-engineering.  Time and $$ but the result is a hell of a good thing that with ~130rwkW and running on 205 section tyres can eat almost anything that "average" people can afford to buy/run. Should really shine on technical tracks where speeds are sub 180km/h.

Well here is a random (Maybe) example.  Results from the last super sprint I did.  P3, P5, P8, P11 are all clubbies.

CAMS WA Speed Event Series - Motoring South West Sprint Collie Motorplex Sprint QUALIFYING COMBINED P1 Q1
Qualifying	Issue 1 Page # 1
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Pos Car Competitor/Team Driver Vehicle Cap CL Qualify...Lap Gap 1 110 Graham Renn Graham Renn Pashley Marengo 998 1A Q1 0:45.5562* 2 18 Phillip Morley Phillip Morley Nismo Sauras Jr 1298 1C Q1 0:46.5428 0:00.9866 3 41 Brent Matthews Brent Matthews Westfield 1987 2A Q1 0:47.3291 0:01.7729 4 177 Marcel Every Marcel Every TRD Formula Toyota 1600 1A Q1 0:47.9968 0:02.4406 5 39 Gary Thorn Gary Thorn Birkin S3 1997 2A Q1 0:48.0095 0:02.4533 6 55 Neil Herbert Neil Herbert Subaru 2300 5D Q1 0:48.1146 0:02.5584 7 306 Bill Stagoll Bill Stagoll Mitsubishi Evo 8RS 2000T 5D Q1 0:48.7655 0:03.2093 8 17 Ray Ferrari Ray Ferrari Westfield 1999 2A Q1 0:49.0512 0:03.4950 9 38 Richard Miller Richard Miller Nissan Skyline 2568T 5D Q1 0:49.3750 0:03.8188 10 58 Rod Dalgleish Rod Dalgleish Subaru GC8 2500T 1D Q1 0:49.3802 0:03.8240 11 88 Iain Chambers Iain Chambers AMB Clubman 1800 2B Q1 0:49.5734 0:04.0172 12 83 Paul Weir Paul Weir Subaru Impreza 2500T 1D Q1 0:50.1767 0:04.6205 13 28 Geoff Weir Geoff Weir Subaru Impreza 2500T 1D Q1 0:50.1891 0:04.6329

[No Crust Racing]

Yeah but that tells you nothing about the specs/cost of those cars. 

 

[Dale FZ1]

One of them an ICV - Westfield, Birkin are common names.  Guessing they've been playing for long enough to have it about right.

What I'm getting at is an ICV built in someone's shed may just as likely not have it right - beware buying someone else's problem child.  They are intricate things, and done "about right" ARE mighty capable things.

Where I run, clubbies are right up there too.

 

[djr81]

7 minutes ago, ActionDan said:

Yeah but that tells you nothing about the specs/cost of those cars. 

 

Well they are all a little bit different.  Some have Toyota motors, one of them has a CA18DET.

5 minutes ago, Dale FZ1 said:

One of them an ICV - Westfield, Birkin are common names.  Guessing they've been playing for long enough to have it about right.

What I'm getting at is an ICV built in someone's shed may just as likely not have it right - beware buying someone else's problem child.  They are intricate things, and done "about right" ARE mighty capable things.

Where I run, clubbies are right up there too.

 

As long as the thing is a wide body (So you can wedge your child bearing hips into the thing) and has IRS it is not going to be that far wrong.  Clubbies have been around for something like 60 years. They are all much of a muchness. AMB, Birkin, Westfield.  They quality of the build and fit and finish vary widely but if you want some thing cheap, fast, driveable on the road then you can do alot worse than 7's.

[No Crust Racing]

I already have CA18DET running gear.... 

200rwkw and 600kg would go OK

[Dale FZ1]

Toyota 4AG is a very popular engine for a reason.

Seems that MZR Mazda is becoming the modern updated equivalent.

Turbocharging can bring difficulties in effective cooling (tiny grille opening), and the type of mid range torque available a bit overwhelming coming off corners.

There are people running Hayabusa and ZX14 bike donks - great option but takes a sideways step in thinking.  And simple things like a reverse gear become "issues".

There's nothing wrong (and a lot right) with a live rear axle and 4 link for track (especially for track).  Which is what we're kicking ideas around for?

[djr81]

Maybe but I dont like the idea of sitting on a live rear axle especially when IRS is so easy for these things.

I guess you need to decide if it is to be registered or not.  AFAIK you cant motorbike engine it and have it registered.  That and the transplanted motor is only allowed to be so old.  Cant remember how old.

There are plenty of half finished clubbie projects laying about.  Low ball away I say.

[Dale FZ1]

Differences in opinion for "best spec" but agreed - semi completed project could be a good starting point.

There's a pretty strong Aust based clubman forum and owners/builders/drivers with vast experience that would have a good handle on what works and what's available

[djr81]

Well if it has a finished space frame and a body kit you are half way there.  Have a look at the SA clubbies forum for sale by way of an example.

http://www.clubbiessa.com/clubbie_classifieds.shtml

[DJBarnstar]

Yeah I think a "good" one runs you quite a few dollars though, by good I mean the race version with full cage and potentially a boosted motor. 

If we say my Silvia at full weight with me in it is 1200-1300kg? It makes 200rwkw so 6-6.5kg/per kW and that thing weighs between 660-700 I think depending on donor parts used.

If we say 700-740 with me in it and we could maybe squeeze 100rwkw out of an NA MX5 motor (I'm guessing, I have no idea) then you end up with 7-7.4kg/per kW. If you could get a mild boosted platform (say low boost supercharged setup) and get it to 140rwkw or so then things look nicer. 

I realise there's more to lap time than power to weight and that thing would kick ass through the corners and most likely be faster even with a worse power to weight as it can maintain higher corner speeds once moving. 

I'd need to drive one [emoji4] There doesn't appear to be much in the open wheeler space for reasonable $$ so I can  see why MX5s are so popular. 



 

Have a couple of mates that went halves in an mx5. Think it was about 7k and probably spent another 5 inc rollbar. Runs 1.16s at wakefield. ..allll day... corners as hard as my gtr, and is 90 percent as exciting with no concers about blowing it up/ dinging it. Multiple peeps driving back to back. When i have space, there will be one in my Shed. Gutless, but streessfree. Wouldn't bother with turbo as you will just chase problems and floggability will diminish.

[No Crust Racing]

Everyone keeps Banging on about MX5s but given how much work has gone into this s13 it might be easier to stick with it and just not chase power.

200rwkw is safe enough for a CA now the head gasket is fresh.

Maybe I should spend a few hundred on an ecu for safety and a tidier tune as I only have the old 90s era Apexi SAFC2 and SITC, sitting on top of a tuned base ROM.

If I got an MX5 it would need to have the same level of mods mine does, brakes, suspension, seat, cage, some basic aero etc and most of the ones I see for sale in the budget of what this Silvia is worth don't have all that.

Sad knowing this Silvia is worth 5-7k tops

[Hadouken]

Aren't you the one who started this thread? Lel

Like you've said you are either going to cut your losses with the silvia or stick with it. Seems like any other car venture to me.

[V28VX37]

Great thread, thanks for posting Dan!

I've been entertaining the idea of offloading the 34 though it's way too far gone in terms of time and cost over the past five years. It's the only car and keeping the balance between family friendly (=safe) and track friendly (=quick/reliable) is tough - I've just about tipped it over the edge with the 1.5-way. Sounds like DJBarnstar is familiar with that story

Anyway if you replaced it with a 2-car combo you could optimistically do a ~10k family diesel wagon (how exciting) and a ~10k track toy, but you don't get much for that money. MX5's are very appealing but a sorted turbo example wouldn't fit the budget. Though heaps lighter it'd be hard to go NA for the lack of power (at least on paper) but that said ditching the turbo would also mean reliability & heaps less ongoing cost.

Speaking of, sounds like I'm currently spending close to Radical money per track day and not very happy with that frankly, especially since I don't seem to reach a level of reliability where I could actually improve my driving and times. One very expensive game.

[No Crust Racing]

Aren't you the one who started this thread? Lel

Like you've said you are either going to cut your losses with the silvia or stick with it. Seems like any other car venture to me.

You know me, I like to discuss things and work my way through it but also see what else I dont know which is why forums are great.

I'll campaign the S13 a bit more I think, I really wanna see how it goes on 255s.

[No Crust Racing]

Great thread, thanks for posting Dan!
I've been entertaining the idea of offloading the 34 though it's way too far gone in terms of time and cost over the past five years. It's the only car and keeping the balance between family friendly (=safe) and track friendly (=quick/reliable) is tough - I've just about tipped it over the edge with the 1.5-way. Sounds like DJBarnstar is familiar with that story [emoji4]
Anyway if you replaced it with a 2-car combo you could optimistically do a ~10k family diesel wagon (how exciting) and a ~10k track toy, but you don't get much for that money. MX5's are very appealing but a sorted turbo example wouldn't fit the budget. Though heaps lighter it'd be hard to go NA for the lack of power (at least on paper) but that said ditching the turbo would also mean reliability & heaps less ongoing cost.
Speaking of, sounds like I'm currently spending close to Radical money per track day and not very happy with that frankly, especially since I don't seem to reach a level of reliability where I could actually improve my driving and times. One very expensive game.

Slightly different for me. I have a work car for my daily, just an SY territory but it's free so winning.

My 34 is my weekender, s13 is dedicated track car.

[benm]

Provided nothing breaks and you dont damage the body pieces (by running off the track or over curbs) my Radical would be as cheap if not cheaper to run per regular trackday as an MX5.

This year (so far) ive done 15 trackdays (3-4 more booked this year) I've done 600 laps on a set of old second hand tyres, 3 engine oil + filter changes per year, 3 brake fluid changes, 3 diff oil changes, 1 air filter, brake pads and rotors will last 40 trackdays.

Same price as a gtr to buy, far cheaper to run and maintain, but more expensive if you break parts (if they are Radical branded from the UK).

[admS15]

Great thread, thanks for posting Dan!
I've been entertaining the idea of offloading the 34 though it's way too far gone in terms of time and cost over the past five years. It's the only car and keeping the balance between family friendly (=safe) and track friendly (=quick/reliable) is tough - I've just about tipped it over the edge with the 1.5-way. Sounds like DJBarnstar is familiar with that story [emoji4]
Anyway if you replaced it with a 2-car combo you could optimistically do a ~10k family diesel wagon (how exciting) and a ~10k track toy, but you don't get much for that money. MX5's are very appealing but a sorted turbo example wouldn't fit the budget. Though heaps lighter it'd be hard to go NA for the lack of power (at least on paper) but that said ditching the turbo would also mean reliability & heaps less ongoing cost.
Speaking of, sounds like I'm currently spending close to Radical money per track day and not very happy with that frankly, especially since I don't seem to reach a level of reliability where I could actually improve my driving and times. One very expensive game.

In your case Jussi, you've replaced just about every consumable and not so consumable item there is. I think it's about time some good luck comes your way. You should be able to start enjoying some track day reliability. If the bad stuff keeps happening, you may have to consider renaming yourself Greg [emoji16]