RWD and sensible power figure

[Roy]

:jk: :jk:

gtr's are for pussies that cant drive

Im a coward and didnt want to be the first to say... ..

... runs and hides from the artillary shells

I will not turn my back on the old GTST, it may cheat a little with a bigger heart, but it is staying RWD...unless someone can convince me that a GTR wil be more fun to drive and more importantly noticeably quicker around a track.

And as far as my own experience with GTRs, well ive driven one relatively std R32 GTR, and i have been a passenger in plenty including the only GTR that has really convinced me they are worth the money and agro....

Im up for a drive this weekend for sure...

[Scooby]

Anyway... back to trying to answer Roy's question. Remember, we don't negotiate with hijackers.

Roy;

If I understand your question I think the problem here is that the focus is on one thing only - power. It won't turn into an exercise in futility if you have traction sorted.

At the risk of sounding simplistic, what do you want to do - go fast/sideways, have fun, be competitive in a given class etc? The beauty of being in a class that it partially minimises dilemmas like this because you're restricted.

Irrespective of what your aim is, power and its delivery will only ever be one part of the equation; balancing the gearing and other issues play a huge part in achieving your aim, but what is your aim? If you have huge torque then use taller gears/diff ratio and enjoy the legs it gives you but remember you'll need good brakes to slow the thing down. And then there's the issue of what circuit you are on - to optimise things for all circuits and the road is very difficult, that why guys like Sydnkeykid were invented so they can calculate gears, tyres, susp and power curves and specify set-up. Remember the race teams don't always get it right either.

Get some professional help - er, advice - build it how you want it and be happy.

[Cubes]

Roy,

With the RB30 you are going to be able to fry the tyres just as easy BUT there is more throttle control.

Drop Raist60 a PM as he went from the RB25 to RB30 making around 250rwkw.

Even though the RB30 is making the same power Raist60 said the car felt like an animal.

You do need the larger exhaust a/r witht he RB30's otherwise you will get power nosing over at around 5000-5500rpm.

I'm sure you've seen his dyno run?

Considering you are using the car for a lot of track work why not grab yourself a complete RB25DE out of an R32 and drop a set of GTR rods and pistons in to it?

[INASNT]

shitload more average power there with rb30.

I might be able to plot my dyno graph against his as i got my last dyno run/tune at racepace also to see where the crossover point is.

[predator]

Considering you are using the car for a lot of track work why not grab yourself a complete RB25DE out of an R32 and drop a set of GTR rods and pistons in to it?

That is the other thing to consider also.. having something that is readily and cheaply rebuildable is probably another consideration if you are doing plenty of track work. No matter how much power the engine is putting out, something will always go wrong.

[Guilt-Toy]

This is a very interesting thread. I am going to be a proud r33 rb25/30 driver soon and I am very interested in the difference in driveability and power and quarter mile racing.

how much better would the rb30 be to the rb25 in a quarter mile race? if at all? and would there be a power difference ? if so how much ?

[Cubes]

The only down side of the RB30 is the legality side of things.

Sure you can change engine numbers etc but the block is always going to be taller, unless you do a really good job with the cam belt cover then it is going to be noticable should you be required to go for a VIS.

This is why I recommended the RB25 with the RB26 internals for Roy.

I think it would suit his track work better.

[Guilt-Toy]

whats the best way to fix it ?

[Roy]

 

And then there's the issue of what circuit you are on - to optimise things for all circuits and the road is very difficult, that why guys like Sydnkeykid were invented so they can calculate gears, tyres, susp and power curves and specify set-up. Remember the race teams don't always get it right either.  

Get some professional help - er, advice - build it how you want it and be happy.

Well my car already has good brakes, good susp setup, not great but good. And calculating all the gearing, rpm, power with compressor maps, suspension pitch, tyre loads etc etc can be done, if my car was running i could even get all that data to assist in CALCULATING what the result will be... but so much of the theory crap goes out the window when you go for a drive in the technically brilliant car for the first time and are disapointed by the results.

Effectively will a 250rwkws RB20 hook up better then a 320-350rwkw car RB30. Or will the more tractable nature of the 3L make it easier to drive.

I understand what Snowman is saying about buy a GTR, but how many ppl can actaully say they have been for a ride in a well setup GTST with brakes, power, cooling, suspension etc...Merli put your hand down.

So unless Ken wants to sell his car, no more talk of 4wd GTRs, now GTR internals in an RB25DE i like, but concerned that the inlet manifold will be a restriction, and also the valvetrain...hence my other post about converting hydraulic lifters to solids... i was thinking RB25DE to solids not an RB20DET to solids

[Revhead]

Apologies if my previous post came across a bit harsh, it wasn't intended that way, but I stand by what I said.

I never said you can't have a high peak power reading and have a quick car, just that one does not automatically mean you get the other.

So you would take a fatter torque curve any day, would you spend 6k on a 20rwks average power improvement?

Just to clarify, in my first post I said I'd take a fat torque curve over a high PEAK power reading, not an average one.

Average power and peak power are two different characteristics of an engine. One is taken at a specific part of the rev range, and the other describes how useable a sizeable portion of the rev range is. Would I take a 20kW peak power increase for 6k? Yes, if the rest of the rev range showed a suitable improvement that is not mentioned when talking purely about a peak power reading.

While I have not built "these" cars, I have been involved in the build of a couple of other cars where these theories have been put into practice. An 11 second VLT that made 15rwkW *less* but knocked 3/10 off its time (and felt 10x more grunty on the street) without touching tyres, suspension, gearbox or diff comes to mind, as does a 351 Capri, that went from 9.6 to 9.45 by getting a cam made up that spread the power over a wider section of the powerband, dispite losing some peak power in the process. It's common sense stuff, and both of these cars are much nicer to drive on the street.

On a side note, I might have to look up the Serious Performance 5 DVD, a whole stack of 'lines being tested can't be a bad thing

[ferni]

WHat about Ben from racepace's R33 GTR Troy? Recon you could ever get a gtst around the track as quick as he gets that around the track?

[INASNT]

Its not just the car, its the driver 2

[Roy]

WHat about Ben from racepace's R33 GTR Troy? Recon you could ever get a gtst around the track as quick as he gets that around the track?

Thats not playing fair! From what i hear nothing can touch that car, but i give me the keys to a GT2/3 Porsche (RWD) and ill try

[Guilt-Toy]

Why the hell are we comparing a GTR to a GTST ? its just plain silly because we all know the GTR is better hands down.

'however'

Everyone here loves a Skyline depending on their personality / driving habbits and what they want to do with it. Personally i really love the RWD of my GTST but I aint gona say to anyone that a GTST is a better choice cos I know im wrong.

Its hard to wipe that huge smile off my face after comming out of a corner all crossed up one way then the other then the other. Im sure many people agree. But owning a GTR would just be awesome IMHO.

[Roy]

Apologies if my previous post came across a bit harsh, it wasn't intended that way, but I stand by what I said.

Dont apologise, no need to... i posted to hear ppl thoughts and expereinces

[ferni]

INASNT: sure but i didn't say anything about the driver, i was suggesting did he think he could get a gtst to run same times as Bens GTR, as in same driver (Roy)...

I belive there is more to the engineering of a GTR compared to Gtst than just 4WD.

both are great cars...

edit: oops looks like i did say 'he gets his car around the track' I didn't mean that, i meant how quick his car gets around the track... sorry

[Laurence]

Throw enough money at a GTS-t and it will go faster than Ben's GT-R

[Abo Bob]

Thats not playing fair! From what i hear nothing can touch that car, but i give me the keys to a GT2/3 Porsche (RWD) and ill try

I don't know about Ben from Racepace but I was out at Eastern Creek yesterday where, incidently I was unbeatable in group C he he, and there were two GT3 Porsches and an R33 GTR with the plates XLR8IN. The GTR wiped the floor with the porsches.

[Guilt-Toy]

Mad thats what I like to see

[Roy]

INASNT: sure but i didn't say anything about the driver, i was suggesting did he think he could get a gtst to run same times as Bens GTR, as in same driver (Roy)...

I belive there is more to the engineering of a GTR compared to Gtst than just 4WD.

both are great cars...

Bens GTR is running back of the fieed V8 Supercar times so that is a huge accomplishment. I have never driven at Sandown so dont know what makes a quick car at that circuit.... and im not looking to beat monster cars, GTR or otherwise, just a car that entertains, and at the same time embarasses the occasional big dollar car

Am i right in assuming Sandown more then any other Vic track is a drag strip with a few corners, so comes back to power, where i think my current setup wuold do well considering it weighs in the low 1300s (kg) and had i suppose 220-250rwkws.

I may still find out, shoe string budget RB20 is going back in as i cant have the car off the road for another 5 weeks waiting for new engine to be built.