RWD and sensible power figure

[predator]

Sure you can change engine numbers etc but the block is always going to be taller, unless you do a really good job with the cam belt cover then it is going to be noticable should you be required to go for a VIS.

...or you could actually get it engineered

as to how a 300rwkw rb30det handles.. hmmm, i guess i will find out ....

[Laurence]

The real problem you face is that in sprints there are pretty much no rules. Apart from noise and tyres. So it is very difficult to set yourself guidelines.

Drag racing people have the right idea where someone will try to be "fastest GT-R with low mount turbos on street tyres" or something like that. Perhaps you need to set some arbitrary goal like that. Personally I think 220rwkW-250rwkW is plenty. It also is very similar to what a GT3 puts out.

Are 50kW more going to make your enjoyment higher? Maybe a little bit.. Are they going to help you become a better driver or just help you to wear things out faster? Power is addictive and it is fun, but for someone interested in track days I think that money is better spent elsewhere.

Driving a fast car fast is harder than driving a slow car fast. Flat out kinks become corners you have to brake for etc etc... So I do not deny that there is an advantage in making your car faster to help you become a better driver. But if money is a concern I would just build a reliable RB20DET and go through lots of tyres.

[Snowman]

For anyone reading this and is going "Who's Ben and why is he so special?"

Quick Stats from my last track day with him:

Sandown Raceway

Reference - Lap record for GT Production (Subaru WRX STi) 1:21.41

My Lap record there = 1:26.7

On this day:

Quickest GT3 = 1:26.3 (there were 3 others as well)

Quickest Ferrari was 360 Challenge - 1:24.5 (full slicks)

Ben = 1:16.8

I don't know if SK has had his 600HP gtst down there for a comparison reference?

[Laurence]

So he has 180hp more than the Ferrari, 220hp more than the GT3 and he is faster...

WOW!

[GTRgeoff]

Snowy for interests sake, how many old Zeds are going faster than you, and isn't there a datto 1600 thats fairly quick? All are heaps cheaper options and RWD. When the GTR was supposedly king there were a few RWD cars actually quicker, the GTR used AWD launches to get in front and drive the ass off until tyres faded, then drive defensively. Winning races was the game.

There was also a Ferrari in the 1:19's I thought. The black GT3 was a lady as well I recall and her husband/BF was also driving that same car and was only about a second faster than my 195kmh limited ZR tyred 1:36.

All this doesn't change me wanting a GTR for the road, but as SK has posted in another thread, he is enjoying the simplicity and elegance of the RWD setup.

As an opinion, I think Bens setup in a R32GTSt stripped to the same level and tuned and suspension balanced would be a couple of seconds faster.

[Merli]

So he has 180hp more than the Ferrari, 220hp more than the GT3 and he is faster...

WOW!

Having more power doesn't necessarily mean you'll lap faster :Oops:

There's a hell of a lot more to it than power

[ferni]

I will not turn my back on the old GTST, it may cheat a little with a bigger heart, but it is staying RWD...unless someone can convince me that a GTR wil be more fun to drive and more importantly noticeably  quicker around a track.

thats all i'm trying to do

[ferni]

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't hte engineering have anything to do with it?

The GTR is heavier, but it also has the 4wd, a stiffer body, different wheel base etc... surely this has to play into it somehow as well?

[Laurence]

Having more power doesn't necessarily mean you'll lap faster :Oops:  

There's a hell of a lot more to it than power

I know that, I was just being silly...

But it does annoy me that people go on about how it was faster than a car that cost $300,000 as if it means anything. You canna change the laws of physics, apart from having GT in the name there is nothing at all comparable between the performance of the two cars... It seems people just want to point out their superiority in spending less to go faster. A sort of reverse snobbery

[Roy]

...My Lap record there = 1:26.7

On this day:

Quickest GT3 = 1:26.3 (there were 3 others as well)

Quickest Ferrari was 360 Challenge - 1:24.5 (full slicks)

Ben = 1:16.8

Ok a Carrera Cup car is lighter then a std GT3, but Porsche 911 Carrera Cup Lap Record @ Sandown is 1:14.76, so the GT3s in the 1:26 are being underdriven something chronic

But comparing lap times is so misleading....drivers are a huge variable. But hey are the sort of cars that make me think, if they can get traction why cant a 450hp RWD R32?

[Snowman]

Geoff - that was the quickest Ferrari and the quickest Porka.

There is a Zed with an RB26 that does 1.22's, a datto 1600 with an SR20 that does 1.27's and there is a GTO (yes one of those boats) that does 1.19's (tunned by Ben funnily enough)

Most of the GTR's with 2530's do around the 1.22's. (all the guys I've seen with these though are good steerers)

[Laurence]

Roy... whack some Carrera Cup 305-660R18 slicks on the back she'll be right

[GTRgeoff]

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't hte engineering have anything to do with it?

The GTR is heavier, but it also has the 4wd, a stiffer body, different wheel base etc... surely this has to play into it somehow as well?

Only to some extent. As a stock car it is certainly a better starting point, but the extra engineering (call it complexity) means that when things go wrong, there are more variables to solve for and more elements to fail, when the handling balance becomes a problem, just where do you start in a 3 diff AWD complex system? The GTSt has some issues, but they are not as expensive to solve IMO and the track can be increased with good spacers, just the steering gets hard with the added scrub radius.

The V8SC's are a relatively basic piece of gear compared to the GTR's having now been up close to the Winfield GTR and helped work on the Ozemail cars. Was just to keep costs in control and the expense now is optimising the rigid spec.

I don't think there is any reverse snobbery about it if people want to go faster in a rwd car. It's your money guys, waste it however you like . Seriously though I do want a GTR, but choose not to put one on the track. The money is not an issue, I have just set my own goals, and being the technical type, try to do it better on a lower budget. I'm just embarassed there are old cheap nasty zeds kicking my butt...for now. I'll do it with the stereo on and the AC cooling me down

As for Roy's comment on the Carrera Cup cars, have you looked at the spring rates they run? SK would be having kittens they are that hard. No way they could handle much more grunt.

[benjiman74]

As an opinion, I think Bens setup in a R32GTSt stripped to the same level and tuned and suspension balanced would be a couple of seconds faster.

You are kidding yourself. The amount of development Ben has put into his front diff, rear diff & transfer case to get the 495awkw to the ground hasn't happened overnight. He's also the first to admit that with a professional steerer his car has a couple of seconds up its sleeve. Arguably the gtst may be more entertainment value for some but if the fastest way around a track was the gtst then i think Fred Gibson may have gone that route.

[GTRgeoff]

Geoff - that was the quickest Ferrari and the quickest Porka.

There is a Zed with an RB26 that does 1.22's, a datto 1600 with an SR20 that does 1.27's and there is a GTO (yes one of those boats) that does 1.19's (tunned by Ben funnily enough)

Most of the GTR's with 2530's do around the 1.22's. (all the guys I've seen with these though are good steerers)

Fair enough mate. I was remembering the times on the day from the results posted on the window at race control :Oops:

Still there's plenty of options. I'm still looking for the sponsor to pay me to get a GTS25t faster than Ben's white rocket. Won't be a fun daily driver then though.

[ferni]

Maybe i'm biased - never owned a gtst - driven a few, but not on track....

But if i bought a gtst instead of a GTR (nearly did), then id still have in the back of my mind 'when am i going to upgrade to a GTR'...

If you put the same mods on a stock gtst to a stock gtr, ie stickies on both, suspension on both etc etc... I still see the GTR being faster.

[Roy]

It seems people just want to point out their superiority in spending less to go faster. A sort of reverse snobbery

For me its nothting to do with snobbery, its got everything to do with engineering. Thats why i like V8 supercars, they engineer a car to do something that it should never be able to do.

Sure cars that come from the factory engineered to do track work are great, but i dont want to buy the engineering, i want to have input myself (The picture is becoming clearer now...im a frustrated mech engineer that wanted to work in motorsport not the pharmaceutical industry )

ferni is on the same wavelength, the difference between the GTST and the GTR is less about the 4WD (How often do we see the torque gauge flying around on the track) and more about the chassis and suspension setup of the GTR, something a GTST can copy to good effect and not be burdened with the extra weight.

Still i dotn want this to be a GTST v GTR thread, but more the limitations of good power and RWD

Still i need Merli to tell me his GTR is quicker then his GTST or Steve, B-man, Doughboy to tell me there power is wasted around the twisties of a circuit (Doughboy dont bother just throw me the keys

[B-Man]

Roy - 330 rwkw is more than enough power for circuit racing. I usually run on low boost (275 rwkw) - with 330 rwkw I can overtake most cars in 3rd/4th gear down the straight at EC - but when it comes to turns one and two they always get me on the brakes. I can only really use all that power down the straight. Aslo need a new pair of undies if I brake lateish....

At Wakefield I didn't even bother with high boost - low boost was heaps.

Traction is also an issue - semi slicks are a MUST.

Don't spend too much $$ getting big power - keep some for brakes, suspension, diff, and tyres and more tyres.

[Roy]

Maybe i'm biased - never owned a gtst - driven a few, but not on track....

If you put the same mods on a stock gtst to a stock gtr, ie stickies on both, suspension on both etc etc... I still see the GTR being faster.

LOL.... thats why i hated not having my car at Winton, cause quietly i was thinking my car would have the Echo, and it wasnt too far off the pace you guys had by days end, and there was only 3 laps where i tried my heart out in the Echo and it was pretty quick :headspin:

Note: Echo is code for a car i should not have been driving

B-man, that the thing my car already has ok brakes, suspension and tyres.

[Laurence]

Whoops, I sort of screwed up. I was comparing GT3 with GTR...

Sort of like

Skyline guy - "Hahahaha, look at you with your $240k GT3- "I beat you with my $100k Skyline"

Porsche guy = "ahhhh cool, but I've got a Porsche"

But I guess the same applies if you are comparing a GTS to a GT-R.