RWD and sensible power figure

[Merli]

LOL...couldnt care less about 1/4 mile, id have a cool 302 Capri if i did,    No corner in particular, but all the corners that make up your typical circuit  

So Eastern, Oran, Wakefield, Winton, Phillip Island, Sandown... the more tracks i drive on the more im gettitng a feel for what makes a car quick...

What I was trying to suggest, subtly, was there is more than one thing that makes a car "quicker" than another It's not all about lap times, although I do concede that is very high on my "beat my old GTS-t" list of things to do :Oops:

[Merli]

B-Man: huh? I have no idea what you're going on about :confused:

edit: and just because I sold the GTS-t, it doesn't mean I'm not still in the GTS-t camp So add "Merli" to that list of GTS-t supporters

[B-Man]

It's alright - either do I .....

he he

[Merli]

No seriously...

I have no idea what words I "might be eating"??? :confused:

[DoughBoy]

:werd:

Edit: damn 3 posts while I edited this!

[Merli]

:werd:

:werd:

[Roy]

What I was trying to suggest, subtly, was there is more than one thing that makes a car "quicker" than another It's not all about lap times, although I do concede that is very high on my "beat my old GTS-t" list of things to do :Oops:

LOL...yeh i know, the Echo at Winton was a good experience and was food for thought...if not a bit disapointing that such a raved about car would have been "FULLY CHOPPED" by my GTST... hence

the more tracks i drive on the more im gettitng a feel for what makes a car quick...

For me it is lap times as thats my interest, some like nice paint, bodykits, drag racing, hell back packign around the world...for me it is about lap times...one day i hope to understand the ingredients needed to prepare a circuit car.

[Roy]

:werd:

:werd:

:werd: ....this sheep always follows the flock ... what am i agreeing with :confused:

[Merli]

I think what Brendan's saying is that there a few serious GTS's being built up at the moment, while there are already alot of serious GT-R's. Have to see how they all pan out, god knows alot of minds get changed while trying to keep up with the Joneses.

................ but I never compared my GTR to any of your GTS-ts? Only MY old one? :confused:

[Sydneykid]

Yeh id welcome the opportunity to look closely at any Ex-Grp A racecar. I read (there  i go again read...no experience) that it was a fixed split that was changed for certain tracks... so thought it was a centre diff thing, makes sense though it would be adjustable in  the cabin for changin conditions mid race and for setting up qualifying...perhaps evern the lunge for the 1st corner

Cool, I spoke to Jim once about the GTR starting technique, he said they used to start with 100% rear drive and then, at the end of first gear, stick a bit of front drive into it. Then add bit more when in second. They raced around 20% to 30% front drive. I don't think it varied much from track to track. His scribbles are on a Winfield GTR poster I have somewhere around here.

I think even the Gibson team found all the adjustments tricky to keep track of, they didn't have in cabin adjustable stabiliser bars which surprised me when I saw it.

It will be great to have another hi powered GTST to compare setting with

[benjiman74]

C'mon Gary, i'm not talking a $150k gtr here, just something of the same value as a nicely modded gtst.

With Roy's budget of around $40-50k with similar power output and laptimes to what he is seeking in his gtst, it would be more like:-  

"How many Brembo's does it take to stop 1.6 tones"

4 and they are factory fitted  

"$5,000 for 3 diffs, how many jobs do I have to work to pay for that?"

standard diffs are fine for this level of development

"Ditto $8,000 for a gearbox?"

300-350rwkw standard box is fine

"It needs 3 tranmission coolers, do Earls think I am made of money?

unecessary at this power level but if you want to put them in then the gtst will need two also

"It's understeering, does it need less front anti roll?

Or "more rear anti roll?"

the gtst would still require a high degree of suspension development to match the gtr's handling

 

Or "3% less front drive on the Attesa controller?"

Or "8% slower torque transfer?"  

torque split controller <$1,000

Or "has the extra 300 kgs weight in the front destroyed the front tyres already?"

probably also related to the fact that they also drive the car

Why do you think Group A died?  Because GTR's kicked everybody's butt?  No, because the cost of running them was unaffordable.  Nothing's changed ben, ask the guys who run fast GTR's how much it costs?

I believe the sierra/gtr domination had a lot to do with it. Why did it become a two horse race thereafter, crowds were down as aussies weren't supporting firstly the british cosworth then the Jap iron. Aren't the v8 supercars of today running on a similar budget?

Maybe I look at it different than you, if I have $30K to spend building a Skyline race car, then a GTST will be faster than a GTR.  If I have $150K to spend, then the GTR will be faster.  But it won't be 5 times or $120K faster.

What about a $50k budget -  which is roughly where Roy is at?

[benjiman74]

Why do you think Group A died?  Because GTR's kicked everybody's butt?  No, because the cost of running them was unaffordable.  Nothing's changed ben, ask the guys who run fast GTR's how much it costs?

I think it had a lot to do with the Sierra/gtr domination. Crowds were down as Aussies weren't overjoyed watching cosworths and jap iron kick butt over the local muscle. Rather than use rule changes to reduce costs it became a two horse race running on a similar budget to that previously i thought. It seemed to work as the crowds returned to watch there beloved pushrod dinosaurs battle it out.

[Roy]

... Ray Hislops Falcon (at Philip Island) it won the Improved Production National Championship.  Keep in mind it rained for 50% of the Final race.  That car has ~750 bhp from a 6 litre NASCAR based Ford V8 (bottom end) with Glen Setons EL V8 Supercar top end (heads injection, trumperts etc ).  It runs on 245/45/17 Yokohama A032R's (the class control tyre) and weighs a good 1600 kgs.  

This car proves that it is entirely possible to get ~500 rwkw to the road using a road legal radial tyre, not a racing slick.

I see no reason why a GTST at 1245 kgs (that's what ours weighs) couldn't do the same (or better) as long as it had the same response that the 6 litre V8 does.  That's the trick, RESPONSE, it is simply useless having a verticle power band at that sort of power level, you couldn't drive it. :

Thats exactly what i was thinking walking away from that weekend...even spoke with Centreline the following week and started putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

Basically im sold, i cant afford the sort of power levels it seems are beyond a RWD car, so ill hunt down as much as possible and that should be fine.... Up for a road trip Chris, it wont be the same without you hurling abuse at me at 4am

[Roy]

I think it had a lot to do with the Sierra/gtr domination. Crowds were down as Aussies weren't overjoyed watching cosworths and jap iron kick butt over the local muscle. Rather than use rule changes to reduce costs it became a two horse race running on a similar budget to that previously i thought. It seemed to work as the crowds returned to watch there beloved pushrod dinosaurs battle it out.

Thats the thing ppl blame Ford/Holden V8s for the detah of Grp A.

Grp A was international, the class was scrapped internationally so we had to find an alternative class. Our local scene didnt kill the class, do you think the poms etc were complaining that Sierras were dominating, the class was killed internationally by cost...we had no alternative but to do our own thing...and i think its a great tin top category

[Cubes]

So when you say you are sold is that sold to the Rb30?

If thats the case feel free to drop us a line to check out how it fits and what is required in the ol' R32.

[Roy]

So when you say you are sold is that sold to the Rb30?

 

If thats the case feel free to drop us a line to check out how it fits and what is required in the ol' R32.

LOL...if anyone ever aks she is a stock RB20, cause RB20s go hard

If i wasnt thinking about wanting to throw all my good bits in a 89 GTST and go racing in Improved Production in 2006 then id go RB20, but with the death of my RB20 plans for mid 2005 need to be fastracked a little

[Cubes]

The RB25DE with 26 internals will pass as a RB20.

Block, head, inlet plenum every thing looks exactly the same.

[benjiman74]

No, he would be asking different questions....

"How many Brembo's does it take to stop 1.6 tones"

"$5,000 for 3 diffs, how many jobs do I have to work to pay for that?"

"Ditto $8,000 for a gearbox?"

"It needs 3 tranmission coolers, do Earls think I am made of money?

"It's understeering, does it need less front anti roll?

Or "more rear anti roll?"

Or "3% less front drive on the Attesa controller?"

Or "8% slower torque transfer?"  

Or "has the extra 300 kgs weight in the front destroyed the front tyres already?"

We have 2 GTR's in the race teams and 1 GTST, I can tell you that it costs 4 times as much per season to run the GTR's and 3 times as much to build them in the first place.  Then when we go to a new track, it takes twice as long to dial them in.

Why do you think Group A died?  Because GTR's kicked everybody's butt?  No, because the cost of running them was unaffordable.  Nothing's changed ben, ask the guys who run fast GTR's how much it costs?

Maybe I look at it different than you, if I have $30K to spend building a Skyline race car, then a GTST will be faster than a GTR.  If I have $150K to spend, then the GTR will be faster.  But it won't be 5 times or $120K faster.

Well, that's the way I see it

Gary, lets keep things in perspective, not many are going to go and spend $150k on a gtst so lets use Roys bodget of $40-$50k and aim for similar lap times.

For this application the 4 brembos that are factory fitted to the gtr should suffice with a pad upgrade, likewise the standard box will be up to the task.

The front and rear diffs can remain but you could afford to modify the transfer case in this budget to address the torque trasfer you mention.

Fitting three transmission coolers is a little overkill at this level of development but hey if you think they are required then the gtst should probably get a gearbox and diff cooler also.

The torque split can be dialled quite quickly with a torque split controller (

[benjiman74]

Thats the thing ppl blame Ford/Holden V8s for the detah of Grp A.

Grp A was international, the class was scrapped internationally so we had to find an alternative class. Our local scene didnt kill the class, do you think the poms etc were complaining that Sierras were dominating, the class was killed internationally by cost...we had no alternative but to do our own thing...and i think its a great tin top category

Why did they change the rules to allow only holden and ford to participate rather than a change to reduce costs for all previuosly involved? Everything was fine when a commodore v8 could blow away a Nissan 2.0 litre turbo or a Beamer but when the internationals upped the anti it seems we don't want to play anymore.

[Bl4cK32]

It will be great to have another hi powered GTST to compare setting with

Great thread to read....

SK mine is in the shop now being finished off as we speak. The bigger turbo setup will follow shortly after its run in, and YES, i am trying to get 350 rwkw out of it. (r32 gtst rb31det)

Will keep you all posted on the results......Joel can vouch for me