RWD and sensible power figure

[Roy]

Well i think i have my answer so thanks ppl.

Bl4cK32 , what inlet manifold are you running?

...and Joel, thought about that, but dont want to be the one to learn the lesson that after i have ported a RB25DE head, put in 272/10.25mm cams and converted it to solid lifters that the RB20 inlet manifold is a big restriction.

For the money i can get a GTR head complete with inlet manifold and just throw the cams at it with some shimming etc. I dont want to have an RB20 looking engine that bad, if i could be sure that an extrude honed and ported RB25DE/RB20DET inlet manifold running a Q45 throttle body wasnt going to hurt performance when running a turbo capable of flowing 65lbs/min then id do it....but i aint too keen on being the pioneer.

[Roy]

Maybe in Sydney this is the case but if the Maserati Track day at Sandown earlier this year is any indication of the trackgoing gtst's in Melb then they have a lot of work to do. By memory the slowest R which was almost bone stock was 5 seconds faster than the quickest gtst. Theres obviously alot more effort in getting the gtst to the same level as a mildly modded R and the resale will not reflect the outlay but I suppose you have to give credit to those who are prepared to take up the challenge. Good luck to all whom have the patience and skill in showing the R's up!

LOL...Its not about showing up GTRs, its about going quick, if ppl gauge a quick time with those of a GTR then so be it, but when i go to a track i typically look at GTP STI times and try to get within 2-4 seconds of them, if i can then i know im doing a good job.

I hope Skylinegeoff is ok with me using his time as an example, but 1:36@ Sandown, with speed limiter, 200rwkws, std road rubber, i think lowered springs and crappy diff.

So take my GTST, about 250rwkws, less weight, bigger and better brakes, more modified suspension actually setup to use the D01js its running. So tyres worth what 2 seconds? Speed limiter has to be worth another 3-4 seconds? Suspension and brakes worth 1 seconds? and lighter weight and more power worth say 2 seconds? Just guesses and examples, but i would bet any sum of money id be able to do under 1:30s, how much lower i dont know never been there. But looking at how my times compare to GTP cars at Wakefield and Eastern Creek i was hoping for 1:25s, @ Sandown. Thats not the time i think i coudl run, but that would have been my carrot... after a few runs there i woudl have better feel for how realistic it was.

But ...sadly with a dead RB20 ill now never know

If you list what you consider a mildly modded GTR , ill tell you what it would take to get the same driver doing similar times in a GTST, well try to anyway :Oops:

[Sydneykid]

Gary, lets keep things in perspective, not many are going to go and spend $150k on a gtst so lets use Roys bodget of $40-$50k and aim for similar lap times.  

For this application the 4 brembos that are factory fitted to the gtr should suffice with a pad upgrade, likewise the standard box will be up to the task.  

The front and rear diffs can remain but you could afford to modify the transfer case in this budget to address the torque trasfer you mention.

Fitting three transmission coolers is a little overkill at this level of development but hey if you think they are required then the gtst should probably get a gearbox and diff cooler also.  

The torque split can be dialled quite quickly with a torque split controller (

Hi ben, I could detail every cost of every part to compare the prices between GTR and GTST, but it would be a waste of time and effort. So let me give you a simple example, shock absorbers...

The GTST, because of its lighter weight, runs a softer spring rate than the GTR's, particularly at the front. I run a set of revalved $800 Koni Sport adjustables on the GTST, they are just about at their capacity controlling the 1245 kgs and ~350 lb springs. On the GTR's I can't use them, they simply don't have enough valving capacity to control the spring rate at ~450 lbs or the extra weight of 275 kgs. So I have to use a larger diameter shock for the superior valving. In addition the GTR can easily boil the oil in the shocks in a 20/30 minute race, so we have to use an external canister to increase the oil carrying capacity and have it away fro m the hot stuff, brakes in particular. So instead of $800 for Konis we have to spent $8K on Proflex.

That's $7.2K extra just on shocks. Then there is the price difference between pads for Brembos and pads for what must be one of the the most popular 4 spot calliper around, the standard Sumi/Nissan as found on GTR's, GTST, Z32, 200SX, 240 SX etc etc. Add to that the fact that on the GTR they last one race meeting, whereas the GTST only needs a couple of sets per year. Wanna get into disks?

Take it from someone who writes out the cheques, spending $20K to buy a GTR leaving $20-30K which won't get you very far. In fact over 9 race meetings in a year (8 State and 1 Nationals) it won't cover the shock, tyre and brake bill.

BTW our GTST cost $4.9K to buy, that's $15K worth of mods against a standard GTR.

Roy sounds like he is going to give it a go, so that's enough from me on this subject....

[benjiman74]

LOL...Its not about showing up GTRs, its about going quick, if ppl gauge a quick time with those of a GTR then so be it, but when i go to a track i typically look at GTP STI times and try to get within 2-4 seconds of them, if i can then i know im doing a good job.

I hope Skylinegeoff is ok with me using his time as an example, but 1:36@ Sandown, with speed limiter, 200rwkws, std road rubber, i think lowered springs and crappy diff.  

So take my GTST, about 250rwkws, less weight, bigger and better brakes, more modified suspension actually setup to use the D01js its running. So tyres worth what 2 seconds? Speed limiter has to be worth another 3-4 seconds? Suspension and brakes worth 1 seconds? and lighter weight and more power worth say 2 seconds? Just guesses and examples, but i would bet any sum of money id be able to do under 1:30s, how much lower i dont know never been there. But looking at how my times compare to GTP cars at Wakefield and Eastern Creek i was hoping for 1:25s, @ Sandown. Thats not the time i think i coudl run, but that would have been my carrot... after a few runs there i woudl have  better feel for how realistic it was.

But ...sadly with a dead RB20 ill now never know

If you list what you consider a mildly modded GTR , ill tell you what it would take to get the same driver doing similar times in a GTST, well try to anyway :Oops:

Going by your comparison to GTP times you can obviously steer. 1:25's in an rb20 powered r32 would be great but as you know its not all about outright power. There is a bloke whom has a stock turboed SR20 (around 160rwkw) in his S15 that runs that sort of time so you are on the money if your car is set up as his is.

IMO a mildly modded R is running a stock internal rb26, upgraded low mounts, aftermarket ecu, exhaust, coilovers and semi comp rubber. This should be good for sub 1:25's. With an r32 import this could be done on a budget of less than 30k.

So its an rb26/30 you're going for since the rb20 has given up the ghost?

[Roy]

AND YET another disclaimer. I love GTRs, anyone that has been stuck at me with track day knows how much i like them and respect what they can do as a std road car. But i wouldnt even consider buying one purely for my own personal reasons which i wont go into here, will take forever and easier to explain in person. :Oops:

So please dont think i have a grudge against GTRs, or assume that i think GTSTs are better etc , what i do think for ME, ths GTST is better.

If i wint Tattslotto my GTR will chop you all, but it will still be slower then the TVR Sagaris id buy

[benjiman74]

AND YET another disclaimer. I love GTRs, anyone that has been stuck at me with track day knows how much i like them and respect what they can do as a std road car. But i wouldnt even consider buying one purely for my own personal reasons which i wont go into here, will take forever and easier to explain in person.  :Oops:  

So please dont think i have a grudge against GTRs, or assume that i think GTSTs are better etc , what i do think for ME, ths GTST is better.

If i wint Tattslotto my GTR will chop you all, but it will still be slower then the TVR Sagaris id buy

I will be checking your car out with great interest when it hits the track. For ME i need a road / track car and the gtr fits the bill nicely. I'm a bit of a tightarse with my cash so i want to recover most of my outlay when the time arises to sell. As SK has pointed out the ongoing cost of running the gtr are not cheap, i just bought a set of pagid blues and didn't get much change of $750. I think they'll last more than 1 track day though.

[Roy]

IMO a mildly modded R is running a stock internal rb26, upgraded low mounts, aftermarket ecu, exhaust, coilovers and semi comp rubber. This should be good for sub 1:25's. With an r32 import this could be done on a budget of less than 30k.

So its an rb26/30 you're going for since the rb20 has given up the ghost?

Reference Lap Times for Sandown

- 1:21.41, GT Production Subaru WRX STi

- 1:28.34, APCC Honda S2000 (Aus. Prod. Car Championship)

God help me at a drag strip like Sandown with no long radius turns like Phillip Island / Eastern Creek etc if i couldnt blow the door off the S2000 time, and get withing 4 seconds of the STI time....

What times GTRs run i dont know & dont normally check as there arent any being raced. Im trying to mod my car and improve my driving, if i go on cars i drive with at track days, as Abobob mentioned earlier, ive beaten Porsches, GTRs, HSVs, GTSTs, WRXs, never an EVO though

But the driver thing is such a huge variable. So i look at the times GTP cars run, considering that with the exception of my Trust turbo my car is setup like a poor mans production car, the turbo is my leveller making up for lack of steering ability.

My car has Whiteline suspension, semi comps, bigger rotors with nice pads, and an aftermarket turbo with ECU. Basically the same mods you list for the R32 GTR. My car is nothing radical.... its sadly tame but i think i could give 1:25s a nudge at Sandown...When you see GTSTs doign poor times have a close look at them, are they on std road rubber, still runningstd ECUs with speed limiters etc etc... and yeh going 3.0L

[Roy]

I will be checking your car out with great interest when it hits the track. For ME i need a road / track car and the gtr fits the bill nicely. I'm a bit of a tightarse with my cash so i want to recover most of my outlay when the time arises to sell.

Yeh anytime, my car is the town whore, everyone has a drive...if you aint a lunatic i have even let ppl drive my car at Eastern Creek or Wakefield, thats the whole point of days like that...driving others cars you get a feel for what you like, what makes certian cars quick, what mods work/dont work etc etc.

Im doing the dodgy to get the car running while i wait for the new gear to be bought/bolted together as i cant be without a car for another 5 weeks. And there is a day at Phillip Island in 4 weeks time that im doing, so it will be the last fling for the RB20. You should tag along and have a laugh with the rest of us

[B-Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doughboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merli

 

....this sheep always follows the flock ... what am i agreeing with

:werd:

Merli - don't worry - I was guessing what you were thinking and I guess I was wrong - or maybe I was a bit pissed - too many JD's (sorry SK, none for you mate - I'll shout you one later)

And re-reading the thread - I have no clue why I thought I guessed what was on your mind -

Must have been my personality disorder re-appearing.

[B-Man]

OH stuff - the quotes didn't work - Oh well , it's too late (at night) to fix now.....................................

[R31Nismoid]

INASNT: sure but i didn't say anything about the driver, i was suggesting did he think he could get a gtst to run same times as Bens GTR, as in same driver (Roy)...

No chance, dont go bringing Ben's GTR into a GTS-t argument.

His car has more $$$ spent on it than your average track car.

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't hte engineering have anything to do with it?

The GTR is heavier, but it also has the 4wd, a stiffer body, different wheel base etc... surely this has to play into it somehow as well?

yes it had a lot to do with engineering.

Just give it 4-5 weeks and i'll be out there with all you GTR's and we'll see what RWD - RB25det can do.

I've got a some 200-250kg's on all you GTRs, but the same approx power/response. My only issue will be traction if that will be a problem at all... which i dont think it will be as bigger problem as i expect it to be

Fair point about the 4wd and this post not existing....but this thread exists because i dont think 320rwkws would be an issue but there are ppl that know more then me saying/thinking the opposite and dont want to learn the hard way

Troy, once my car is done (which is leaves in 8 hours for rebuild) we can go for a spin. It's an RB25, with GTR rods + forgies etc.

I think 250rwkw will be plenty for the track. My car will have a bit more left in reserve too

As the faster you go, the more brakes you'll need otherwise you wont be able to make the most of the power as b-man said

In saying that, one of my favourite highlights from Bathurst was Glen Seton driving his rwd skyline in the wet a couple of years earlier.

That'd be a GTS-R I got one of those

[R31Nismoid]

It would be nice to see some quick gtst's getting around. Maybe in Sydney this is the case but if the Maserati Track day at Sandown earlier this year is any indication of the trackgoing gtst's in Melb then they have a lot of work to do.

hehehehe My car Mr. Ben.. goes to the other Ben today. So lots of work is coming

Dont forget who clocked well in go-karting I'll be on the GTR's heels all the way home

The track scene in Vic has been very quiet in skyline terms. But it is definately getting a lot hotter by christmas

My personal view is that now skylines have come down considerably in price, younger guys (like me) are able to afford a car that goes damn well all round vs. the money your spending.

With the amount i've spent on my car i could by a GTR, but it would be stock.

And my car is faster than a stock GTR

[R31Nismoid]

BTW - this thread is a sensational read.

[GTRgeoff]

Good grief, look how this thread has accelerated. I go away for a day to care for my recovering wife and bang (leg surgery, both legs so I'm the slave ) I'm left in the pits.

Anyway I haven't been hiding from the whalings I've been getting, and deserving because I should have bored the crap out of everyone with excessively long explanatory posts, but essentially all has been answered by Sydneykid and Roy, especially the homologation of GTR vs GTSt. I especially believe that the GTSt would not have been allowed by Nissan after spending so much on their GTR development, and quite rightly too as they want the advertising element without "little brother" raining on the parade. The fact that Roy and I have managed to come together with essentially the same ideals and goals is a bit unreal in itself, but we can feed off each others enthusiasm and ideas, and no sweat on highlighting my poor setup and performance mate, the shame is all mine

I'm a lot like Roy, a mechanical engineer frustrated by having to work on military armour and guns and guided missiles instead of being a race engineer. The race engineer option wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Sydneykid planting the seed in my mind (thanks Gary, I'm now spending a fortune on texts and magazines to learn as much as possible), so logically I want to test my abilitites by getting the GTS up to decent times, especially as a showcase for ability. The target times are that of the old zeds in NDSOC on sticky rubber but they are lighter and stripped out race cars not AC and stereo in sight.

As another disclaimer, I want a GTR so bad it hurts somedays, but I've made a decision and I stick to it. My car can be less a road car due to there being three other cars available in the garage so I'm going to be a little less compromising in the pursuit of the goal.

When I spoke of putting Ben's setup in the GTS, I speak from a system perspective. All the great brakes and suspension is part of the package, less AWD, not just the engine. He has spent a fortune and has my eternal admiration, but apart from the launch (which doesn't happen in sprints) we should all be getting the idea now that dynamically RWD is a far cheaper and easier and lighter option, and any handling/traction deficit is rapidly overcome by the weight advantage, except in the wet. Bens setup is awesome to watch. It is so compliant allowing the power down, and speaks of the mone spent on suspension as well as differential development.

I'm keen to see Roy's results, so keen I'm be wanting to be part of the work team, but I'm also keen to see how it compares to mine when I replace the mongrel no breed turbo that puts out 220 rwkw @15psi with something capable of over 300rwkw with a similar power curve shape. The engine is built for it (thanks again SK and others who contributed) so here's hoping there will be another RWD comparision car, just a lardy R33:D

I think the goal should not be so much how much power can a RWD handle, as SK has already shown it is out of my budget and probably Roy's, but what is affordable and reliable and streetable. That is looking up around the 300-350rwkw, so gun for that Roy. I'm with you all the way.

[ferni]

i'm looking forward to seeing the quick gtst's on the track!

[R31Nismoid]

You will be looking forward when they are infront of you

[Laurence]

Yeah, you're right, I guess if the session is long enough he will lap them

[Guilt-Toy]

how much power out of an RB30DET would you need to push an r33 manual into the high 11 second bracket?

350rwhp ? more ?

I love gtr's & I love my GTST

[Cubes]

Run slicks and it could be done with 350rwhp.

Street tyres you will need over 400rwhp+. Traction is a problem.

[Guilt-Toy]

Would my Auto dif give me an advantage or disadvantage for quarter mile racing with an RB30DET ??? its 4.39:1 instead of the 4.11:1

I can only get 101 - 102ks outta second gear