RB20 Turbo selection (twinscroll housing advice)

[Lithium]

What manifolding would you use?  Cams or anything?  And E85, right?

Also, just to answer something not asked - after experiencing RB20s and EFR7163s in person, I actually would personally use an EFR7163 on an RB20.  I'm certainly not going to say it'd be a beast from "the basement" but I think the match would be extremely fun to drive.  I think it'd "break the rules" about what you'd expect a powerful RB20 to behave like.

From that comment you can no doubt see that I'd personally go for at least an EFR6758   In terms of the EFR vs GT2530, for what it's worth a mate went from a GT2860RS to an EFR7163 on his 3SGTE and the EFR gives away a little under 3000rpm but QUICKLY catches up, we saw 20psi before 3500rpm in 3rd doing a road tuning session... and again, that is the 7163.   I wouldn't bother with smaller than a 6758 on an RB20, personally.  You are never going to have great torque under 3500rpm, may as well keep turbine speed down a little and make a little bit of power for minimal compromise.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Lithium

[iruvyouskyrine]

Manifold was originally going to be a complete copy of the gibson HR31 manifold with T3 TS. However due to the lack of Borgwarner having T3 i will probably be using Hypertune HypEX stainless cast T4 twinscroll collector and the manifold will be cutsom made low mount using all Hypertune HypEX bends. Basically a Hypertune manifold but no EWG provisions.

Standard RB20 cams and will be running 98 octane and E85 (full flex fuel setup).

Lith your comments basically back up my gut feeling, which makes me very happy. I think the 6758 will be the pick for me  I presume the T4 TS .80 A/R housing is a good match for it as it's only 1 of 2 housings Borgwarner offer for the 6758. I know low down power is never going to be great no matter the situation but i think 6758 should be a good all round comprimise.

Now to find the best place to buy one as cheap as possible haha. Any suggestions?

[Lithium]

I'm not actually sure, probably better talking to the people in your country on that one   EFR6758 has potential to be pretty nuts on an RB20.  I think it may surprise you, I'd not be overly surprised if you loaded it up from 3000rpm in a high gear you'd start seeing a LOT of boost early.

[White GTS-T]

Geoff did say in the EFR thread, that they can weld a T3 fitting in house prior to ceramic coating and shipping if need be. That is on a T25 fitted 6258/6758. You'd have to purchace through FullRace though.

[White GTS-T]

I've been wanting to do a 6258 on a stock manifold for a responsive setup for a while now. Maybe I should just bite the bullet...

[Dale FZ1]

23 hours ago, Lithium said:

 

Also, just to answer something not asked - after experiencing RB20s and EFR7163s in person, I actually would personally use an EFR7163 on an RB20.  I'm certainly not going to say it'd be a beast from "the basement" but I think the match would be extremely fun to drive.  I think it'd "break the rules" about what you'd expect a powerful RB20 to behave like.

a mate went from a GT2860RS to an EFR7163 on his 3SGTE and the EFR gives away a little under 3000rpm but QUICKLY catches up, we saw 20psi before 3500rpm in 3rd doing a road tuning session... and again, that is the 7163. 

You are never going to have great torque under 3500rpm, may as well keep turbine speed down a little and make a little bit of power for minimal compromise.

Lithium's comments ^^ are where it's at if there's a burning desire to go split pulse on RB20.  Use its advantages (ability to rev and maintain VE).  The 7163 will allow it to exhale more easily, so of course it will make the numbers up top if torque doesn't drop away as fast.  For "minimal" response compromise down low compared to the 6758.

Personally I would give a much closer look toward the TD05H-16G (or 18G that Roy has surplus to needs), run a half respectable high mount manifold (eg 6boost) and EWG.  Simple, robust, cost effective.  And the manifold + gate will easily transfer over to a 25 or 30DET if you decide you want cubic inches.

[Lithium]

26 minutes ago, Dale FZ1 said:

Lithium's comments ^^ are where it's at if there's a burning desire to go split pulse on RB20.  Use its advantages (ability to rev and maintain VE).  The 7163 will allow it to exhale more easily, so of course it will make the numbers up top if torque doesn't drop away as fast.  For "minimal" response compromise down low compared to the 6758.

Personally I would give a much closer look toward the TD05H-16G (or 18G that Roy has surplus to needs), run a half respectable high mount manifold (eg 6boost) and EWG.  Simple, robust, cost effective.  And the manifold + gate will easily transfer over to a 25 or 30DET if you decide you want cubic inches.

Yay.  You pretty agreed with everything I said, lets be friends     But seriously, those two things are conversations me and some Nissan/tuning/turbo/rum enthusiasts over here have had come up a few times in conversation here and we feel pretty strongly that both probably represent the cost-effective, and then "ultimate" RB20 combo where usable power is a target.

I'd have no hesitation suggesting an RB20 with a Sinco (6boost in Oz are the parallel) manifold, external wastegate and a 8cm TD05-16G6 with the 3" intake housing from Kinugawa (we know people who have bought them since the Mamba dramas and they still seem to be much the same) would blow away some stereotypes.  I'd tentatively suggest that >250rwkw on E85 would be doable, and as I mentioned earlier...  basically should be able to start building meaningful boost by 3000rpm in higher gears.

An EFR7163 would be next level, >300wkw potentially and no issues keeping it on steam when into boost threshold territory.  But yeah, if it's between a 6258 and a 6758 I wouldn't even consider the 6258 as a serious option.

[VFRegal]

I had a td05h-18g on an sr20 and upgraded to 7163 TS on full race manifold. Massive difference.

There's some ex IRL 7163's single scroll for sale on NRR.

$850.

 

 

[iruvyouskyrine]

On my phone so can't reply properly to dale/Lith.

VFR do you have any more info on the setup? Dyno sheets etc. Also what is NRR?

[R_34]

Nissan Road Racing an US forum.

[Kinkstaah]

I also would have said 7163 except for the fact that he wanted 220kw

7163 will get you 300, but it is still a very good unit for the RB20 that can rev out to 8K. It would generate a lot of "A rb20? This is a 20? Holy this is a great 20!" etc.

...but it'll make more than 220kw!

[iruvyouskyrine]

Obviously if i can have my cake and eat it too (super responsive and make high 200 kw's power) then that is the preffered option haha. It's just im skeptical that a 550hp rated turbo (i know turbo HP ratings don't really mean that much) could be strapped on the side of an RB20 and still retain some somewheat decent response. I have only ever been in 1 EFR powered car and it wasn't as magical as i thought it was going to be. I know how peope (especially geoff from fullrace) say that these things are on another level with how quick they spin up and no data show's it as much as you feel it in car, but still, a 550capable unit on a 20 haha 

Basically it has boiled down to the 6758 or 7163 and will probably just get whatever i can pick up cheaper. The ones on the NRR forums are ex indycar turbos and come with specific indycar housings. Will contact the seller and see if i can buy one without the rear housing. The only difference seems to be the compressor cover doesn't have the integrated BOV and BSCV which isn't a huge deal for me.

On 2017-4-25 at 10:15 PM, White GTS-T said:

Geoff did say in the EFR thread, that they can weld a T3 fitting in house prior to ceramic coating and shipping if need be. That is on a T25 fitted 6258/6758. You'd have to purchace through FullRace though.

Hey tim long time no talk, how is your car doing? I would love for you to go the 6258 and i will go 6758 and we can compare 

I am not a fan of modding a rear housing to work, i am going to get my manifold custom made exactly how i want it anyway so i will just go with the T4 TS hypertune cast stainless collector and get it modded to remove the EWG provisions.

On 2017-4-26 at 7:06 PM, Dale FZ1 said:

Lithium's comments ^^ are where it's at if there's a burning desire to go split pulse on RB20.  Use its advantages (ability to rev and maintain VE).  The 7163 will allow it to exhale more easily, so of course it will make the numbers up top if torque doesn't drop away as fast.  For "minimal" response compromise down low compared to the 6758.

Personally I would give a much closer look toward the TD05H-16G (or 18G that Roy has surplus to needs), run a half respectable high mount manifold (eg 6boost) and EWG.  Simple, robust, cost effective.  And the manifold + gate will easily transfer over to a 25 or 30DET if you decide you want cubic inches.

I do have the burning desire. I really want to have the ultimate RB20 combination and i think twinscroll will be a decent factor in deciding this. I agree that the 7163 would be the better match for the RB20 with relation to top end power, however the penalty down low is what i am interested in. It's a shame there is no previous results to base my judgements off. @Lithium suggested that he thinks a 7163 in twinscroll config would spool roughly the same as the standard RB25 turbo that everyone is used to. If that is true (then keeping in mind that spool time + the EFR ability of coming back onto boost almost instantly) i will absolutely go with the 7163. It's just that i haven't been able to find any RB20 results with EFR's that can give some evidence to these claims (not that i am saying lith is wrong, i would absolutely LOVE for him to be forrect). 

Not going with TD05/6boost etc. I already have an R32 with a RB25/30 and ATR43SS2 on 6boost and external gate making 370kw, so my cubic inch craving is satisfied. My goal is to try and have a weapon of an RB20.

On 2017-4-26 at 7:38 PM, Lithium said:

Yay.  You pretty agreed with everything I said, lets be friends     But seriously, those two things are conversations me and some Nissan/tuning/turbo/rum enthusiasts over here have had come up a few times in conversation here and we feel pretty strongly that both probably represent the cost-effective, and then "ultimate" RB20 combo where usable power is a target.

I'd have no hesitation suggesting an RB20 with a Sinco (6boost in Oz are the parallel) manifold, external wastegate and a 8cm TD05-16G6 with the 3" intake housing from Kinugawa (we know people who have bought them since the Mamba dramas and they still seem to be much the same) would blow away some stereotypes.  I'd tentatively suggest that >250rwkw on E85 would be doable, and as I mentioned earlier...  basically should be able to start building meaningful boost by 3000rpm in higher gears.

An EFR7163 would be next level, >300wkw potentially and no issues keeping it on steam when into boost threshold territory.  But yeah, if it's between a 6258 and a 6758 I wouldn't even consider the 6258 as a serious option.

Like i said before lith, i think it has boiled down to 6758 and 7163, whichever one i can get a better deal on will probably be what i end up with. 

 

On 2017-4-27 at 1:14 AM, VFRegal said:

I had a td05h-18g on an sr20 and upgraded to 7163 TS on full race manifold. Massive difference.

There's some ex IRL 7163's single scroll for sale on NRR.

$850.

Are you able to elaborate more on the changes mate? I have a mate with a TD05-18G (not sure if it a H model or not) on a S14 SR20 with poncams and retaining VCT and he loves it. Makes 250ish KW on 98 octane and has a hugely useable power band (according to him, i have never been in or drive the car). So if a 7163 really is "that much better" it is definately going to be a good thing.

[Lithium]

Oh yeah I wasn't trying to sell the 16G again, was just sharing yarns - I know 18Gs are a fair bit doughier so from my sole twin scroll 7163 experience I would expect it to be substantially better than an 18G.  In your case it sounds like the 6758 would be the way to go, but in the general sense I think the 7163 would be supernatural on an RB20 compared to what most expect and if I was personally sinking a bunch into one it is without a doubt what I would put on it.

[VFRegal]

14 hours ago, iruvyouskyrine said:

On my phone so can't reply properly to dale/Lith.

VFR do you have any more info on the setup? Dyno sheets etc. Also what is NRR?

sr20, 260 procams, made 255rwkw but had big boost drop issues. Have made a lot of changes since to alleviate the boost drop.
Hopefully have fixed it but haven't had time to get back on the dyno.
20 psi by 3700rpm, 14 psi 3500 rpm.
My td05 was super doughy, not very lively. Could have been just an unlucky one.
The 7163 just snaps back on boost after gear changes. Great on the track.

[discopotato03]

Don't forget EFR do the 6758 in the same 0.80 AR T4 TS IW turbine housing .

Just for the record Geoff did say that 7163s tend to like engines with high volumetric efficiency whereas others are a little less fussy . Probably something to do with reasonably big wheels for the housing sizes . It may pay to look at the rated power of these two EFR turbos and base your wants on what they can do . 

[Gts-t]

Watching this with great interest, i have sold my 2630 that was going in my gtst and am looking to do something more exciting with the rb20 in the future. I was thinking along the lines of a gibson motorsport style manifold and an efr turbo. Currently it just has the good old hks2530 fitted

[Roy]

6758....has to flow ball park same as TD06-20G and wouls be miles ahead in response. 280rwkws on E85 aint no bad thing for a 20.

The EFR comp has to be close to what the 20G can flow but not sure about the hot side flowing what a TD06 an. Either way it miles over the desired power level 

[Lithium]

Garage 7 just posted this dyno plot of a GTX2871R on an RB20.  20psi at 4700rpm, 100kw at 4000rpm... no thanks.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Lithium

[CEF33Y]

Now thats living!

 

My RB20 made 75rwkw at 4000rpm, haha. and 20psi at 4800rpm.

[Lithium]

50 minutes ago, CEF33Y said:

Now thats living!

 

My RB20 made 75rwkw at 4000rpm, haha. and 20psi at 4800rpm.

What turbo is that?  

I'm not overly impressed with the spool on this, have tuned a 50 trim T3/T4 on an RB20 which was hitting 20psi by around the same rpm.  EFR7163 would destroy this thing in every which way, I'm pretty confident of that.