Brakes. I need BRAKES. But there's a question...

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

15 hours ago, niZmO_Man said:

You also don't have to drill holes, can use helicoils and 12mm (1.5mm pitch) bolts

danger to manifold!

Rather use the OEM thread on the caliper and ever so slightly increase the holes on the uprights

[niZmO_Man]

Mine's been fine for 2 years. I checked the bolts last year, nice and tight

[hardsteppa]

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 4:52 PM, admS15 said:

That definitely works, I have stock sumitomos on my 33 gtst with 324mm gtr front rotors, 40 mm ducting, intima brake pads and penrite 10 tenths fluid. My lap times at Sandown which is heavy on brakes have been pretty good. Only issue is I kill the pads within 2-3 track days. Some V8 supercar spec alcons would be awesome to combat that but in my case they would be worth more than my car.

the 324mm gtr discs are a good cheap upgrade but night and day when compared to moving to a larger caliper/pad. Not talking about you, but those who say, "stock brakes are fine" have clearly never driven a skyline with an upgraded brake package; they're just fkn awesome.

check the pad difference, and overall size of the caliper

I always found stock brakes not that responsive; hell, the company car Mazda 2 had sharper brake response than my r33, until I moved to the ATTKD upgrade.

 

and welcome back ben34, where u been????

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Yeah, but you've probably never driven a Skyline with good brake pads either. 

[Roy]

332 and an y caliper will gfit inside a GT4 rim...i have tried several and you are fine.  Most AP, A;con and Brembo calipers will even fit 343mm, i run them at the moment and had GT4s before changing to TE37s.

 

My 343mm Brembo F40/ST40 Stoptech setup

 

 

With a racey GT caliper you can fit 355mm, but those calipers are expensive race car stuff...

 

[hardsteppa]

21 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Yeah, but you've probably never driven a Skyline with good brake pads either. 

yeah good comment champ. Let me guess, intima sr again?

[hardsteppa]

20 hours ago, Roy said:

332 and an y caliper will gfit inside a GT4 rim...i have tried several and you are fine.  Most AP, A;con and Brembo calipers will even fit 343mm, i run them at the moment and had GT4s before changing to TE37s.

 

My 343mm Brembo F40/ST40 Stoptech setup

 

 

 

With a racey GT caliper you can fit 355mm, but those calipers are expensive race car stuff...

 

 

 

how do you like the Stoptech calipers? Was looking at a set of those for the front, ended up going the ATTKD 6pot though.

[Roy]

I like them...they are absolutely right regarding the engineering in their kits. I originally had the piston sizes that Brembo use in the F40 which is the same as what Nissan/Brembo use in teh R33/34 Brembo.....i found the car had too much braking torque/bite and was too easy to lock front wheels. 

I then tried other Stoptechs with the smaller piston sizes that Stoptech recommend and they are miles better for feel....same rotor and pads, just different piston sizes. Thats why I am wary of the EVO calipers as those pistons are pizza trays!

[hardsteppa]

that's very interesting feedback - I was looking at their piston sizes thinking hmmm, not a huge jump in size over stock?  No doubt they make a quality unit though.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, hardsteppa said:

yeah good comment champ. Let me guess, intima sr again?

Well what pads have you experienced? You have yet to disclose what pads you've used before and how they perform. 

Because I find it hard to believe the stock 4 pot, 296mm brake setup is failing you on the street with a low powered R33 when there are plenty of other high powered R33s that are required often put to the test on tracks. 

Yes bigger brakes will be better but why upgrade your brake setup when the initial weakness is actually the pad choice.

[hardsteppa]

FFS...i have never said stock r33 brakes have failed me, or that they're not a reasonable size. That doesn't mean it's not worth improving them, and that the braking performance experienced doesn't make it a worthwhile upgrade. Why should everyone's priorities HAVE to be that they make hi power, and then upgrade brakes afterwards.

i can't believe that's such a hard concept to grasp..

[Roy]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:45 PM, hardsteppa said:

that's very interesting feedback - I was looking at their piston sizes thinking hmmm, not a huge jump in size over stock?  No doubt they make a quality unit though.

All IMO but i think the value of brake upgrades is over rated. RE performance all you want to do it stop the car ASAP. Now the std brakes with a good pad will stop the car like a champion. The feel the driver gets is the big variable. Some like different feels but the ultimate measure is the tape measure and stopping distance. 

 

As Sydneykid always said, and its a good starting point...if you have enough braking pedal to lock the brakes then you have reached the limit of tyre grip and max braking retardation. 

 

I will throw into the mix pedal feel so the driver can modulate the pedal without prematurely locking the brakes. But if you have ABS then that muddies the water.  So all a brake upgrade allows you to do is that big stop 10 times in a row.  big brake kit and std brakes with the same pad will likely stop the same on the first stop. Problem is by the 10th stop you are likely to have heat soak problems with the std setup so by the 10th stop you may be taking 15% longer to stop. 

 

So 80% of the heat soak is the rotor and its ability to cool and keep within the pad operating range.  You can do that with diameter, width and number of vanes in the rotors.  I would say the last 20% is pad size and how evenly the pad is pressed against the rotor. Depending on pad size and shape sometimes 6 pistons are better than 4 as you can apply more even pressure on the pad to the rotor giving more uniform pad temperature. More even temperature means less hot spots and less onset of brake fade.

 

So the talk of 6 pistons, 8 pistons etc being better than 4 simply because its more is questionable. Given that the cheaper 8 pistons calipers run the same pads as ALcon/AP 6 pots tells you that there is little advantage as you dont see pad wear problems with Alcon Mono6 or AP CP5555 . 

 

When you have a good std setuo like a Skyline then all you are really trying to achieve is better heat dissipation.So that is largely rotor so piston sizes generally need to be reduced when going up in rotor diam to keep the brake balance consistant.  You see the main ways to mess with braking torque which influences bias is pad friction coefficient, rotor diameter and overall piston area. So generally you are running similar u pads front and rear so leaves you with piston area and rotor....increase one and its wise to look at reducing the other. It makes little sense to put bigger pistons on a smaler rotor than your wheel diam will take as a smaller rotor has less leverage. Think about a spinning turntable and trying to stop it from spinning with your finger....is it easy to control its speed with you finger at the oter edge or closer to its centre.

 

So that largely gets me to when upgrading brakes throw as big a diameter and width rotor at your car with as many vanes as possible. Then throw a caliper and pad at it that will work wuth the std bias of the car. R32s seem to like a but more front bias then std...R33/34s less so.

 

If you really want to improve stopping distances then semi slicks and well sorted ride heights to go with your quality shocks/springs will give a waaaay better result then just with a brake upgrade. 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Nailed it

 

[hardsteppa]

Roy thanks for your input, very detailed Just read your first post

On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 8:28 PM, Roy said:

I originally had the piston sizes that Brembo use in the F40 which is the same as what Nissan/Brembo use in teh R33/34 Brembo.....i found the car had too much braking torque/bite and was too easy to lock front wheels. 

If you're thinking the stock gtr calipers have too much bite then you're right , it's all about the driver feel and we probably have very different opinions on this! Glad you're happy with the stoptech setup, I've certainly been happy with the attkd calipers over stock ,so each to their own.

 

[KiwiRS4T]

The D2 330mm brakes have 8 pots so I guess the aim is to even out the pressure over the entire length of the pads. The stopping power is great and progressive. The stock pads only lasted one day at the track. Pagid pads last 3 or 4 track days (with no brake fade) and the daily use in between. If you were really keen you could use track pads and swap them for street pads at the end of the day which would probably work out to be cost effective but just changing the wheels is more than enough work for me...