RB30 EFR8374

[Slidewayzzz]

Hi guys, the time has come to think about where my bottle necks are in my set up and what to touch next. 

Currently i'm as follows:

RB26/30det with all the internal goodies

Ported head, 270 10.8mm lift cams and all supported head mods

Aftermarket inlet mani with 90mm TB all match ported etc

Chinese 600x300x120 cooler (bottle neck?) 3' plumbing all the way round

3.5' down pipe that goes to 3' just past passenger front seat (bottle neck i suspect). 60mm Turbosmart progate

EFR8374 1.05

You will notice on my dyno sheets that it starts dropping off just after 7k. On the high boost run, my tuner tried to feed more boost after 7k but it didn't do anything really. I had a shaft speed sensor installed but didn't realise i needed a speed scaler so I don't have any shaft speed figures unfortunately. I suspect i have some sort of breathing issues or my turbo is maxed out? Does the RB30 just not want to rev any more than 7k? 

Wonder how that EFR9174 would go

 

 

 

 

 

[burn4005]

You're hitting a wall and it's mostly the hot side doing it so the 9174 wouldn't help.

China cooler at 500kw may be a problem but 120mm should be sufficient if it's decent.

But 3" exhaust at 500kw is definitely a problem. That's a lot of cheap power on the table there.

Edited October 1, 2017 by burn4005

[KiwiRS4T]

Did you try asking Glen what he thinks? You need minimum 3.5in exhaust (can flow up to 36% more than 3in) and check the rear muffler to make sure it doesn't step down from 3in like a lot of Japanese mufflers do.

[Slidewayzzz]

Yea Glen said he doesn't like my 3" step down but was more worried about my Chinese cooler. Would a Plazmaman Pro cooler 600x300x76 flow better than my Chinese one? That's what he recommends.. 

[Dale FZ1]

The most obvious comparisons are with Paul's and Peter's RB28 and RB32.

Fair call IMO to suggest this thing is lagging behind them both especially in the mid range, but it's hardly a weakling.  This is still pretty strong!

As above^^ the restrictions should be investigated if the absolute best from the engine is being sought.  The old adage of "boost being a measure of resistance to flow" always holds true, so measuring/assessing turbine inlet pressure is probably worthwhile, similar with turbo speed.  ie. my thoughts are that potentially camshaft specs, and turbine A/R might be working against you.  

High output has got to require good scavenging/cylinder thoughput, but not to the extent that bulk turbocharger shaft power is wasted by poor charge trapment in the cylinder.

And maybe the 8374 is actually undersized for whatever you're chasing out of the engine?  The VE characteristics of your engine may well require a bigger turbine capacity, and use the compressor to push air through if you want more hp.  How that affects torque and throttle response down low/mid rpm is a different issue IMO (or not, if you're an EFR convert )

Playing at this output level is going to take time/effort/$$ and at some stage enough is enough.  There are no silver bullets, and identifying the "best" combination for this engine beyond the exhaust and cooler might not be easy.  I know I'd be ecstatic with something this strong. 

[KiwiRS4T]

RB30s have been revved to 10,000 but that is neither here nor there. I suggest the exhaust as an easy first step but as above you are not exactly short of power.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

You'll need a 100mm Comp Series Plazmaman cooler for that kind of serious boogie.

If you need good pricing on Plazmaman coolers, flick me a PM. 

Also I should suggest at least a 3.5" exhaust all the way from turbo back if you're running screamers. If it's all plumbed back go 4".

[Lithium]

On 01/10/2017 at 2:18 PM, Slidewayzzz said:

Chinese 600x300x120 cooler (bottle neck?) 3' plumbing all the way round

3.5' down pipe that goes to 3' just past passenger front seat (bottle neck i suspect). 60mm Turbosmart progate

EFR8374 1.05

You will notice on my dyno sheets that it starts dropping off just after 7k. On the high boost run, my tuner tried to feed more boost after 7k but it didn't do anything really. I had a shaft speed sensor installed but didn't realise i needed a speed scaler so I don't have any shaft speed figures unfortunately. I suspect i have some sort of breathing ssues or my turbo is maxed out? Does the RB30 just not want to rev any more than 7k? 

Glen said he doesn't like my 3" step down but was more worried about my Chinese cooler. Would a Plazmaman Pro cooler 600x300x76 flow better than my Chinese one? That's what he recommends.. 

 

Sounds like you essentially know all the variables already - if Glenn has suggested the intercooler could be an issue then there is a reasonable chance he's seen something to suggest that, possibly climbing intake temps or something?

To be fair, 510kw is pretty good going on pump gas - it's likely to be getting quite up there for the 8374 (bearing in mind on E85 that would be well north of 550kw I'd say).    I can't actually remember what @Sub Boy32's turbine speed was but there is a fair chance you are actually getting well up near the limit of the compressor as it stands,  and going from the data @Piggaz got from his tune it seems the 1.05 hot side starts backing up as the compressor backs up around 24psi... so yours is potentially running an even worse pressure ratio across the engine.   It's a shame you don't have turbine speed data as that'd paint a picture VERY quickly.

I doubt very much it's the RB30, the 3" exhaust, the china cooler AND the relatively conservative sized turbo for a 3litre with fairly decent sized cams are more likely to hold the truth of the matter.  If you were going 9174 then I'd say the 1.45 hotside would be the way to go as well, if not just 9180   

[Slidewayzzz]

Awesome, thanks for all the info. I have ordered my 4" exhaust bits and will get it installed shortly. Also ordered a speed scaler. Will get her on the dyno and see where im at and what the 8374 can give on pump.

I also thought that a 76mm cooler core is on the small side but the plazmaman website rates them to 900HP+! I'd be more comfortable with a 100mm+ cooler TBH but at $1795.. Thats no joke 

Might have to wait and see what that efr8474 is all about? 

Will post results after exhaust is done with shaft speed data for the 8374 for interest sake.

[iruvyouskyrine]

What is the speed scaler you are using mate?

[Slidewayzzz]

24 minutes ago, iruvyouskyrine said:

What is the speed scaler you are using mate?

https://gcg.com.au/petrol-performance/performance-1/borg-warner-efr-accessories/turbo-speed-scaler-borg-warner-efr-detail

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Only just realised you're in NZ!

[Sub Boy32]

On 04/10/2017 at 12:46 PM, Lithium said:

 

Sounds like you essentially know all the variables already - if Glenn has suggested the intercooler could be an issue then there is a reasonable chance he's seen something to suggest that, possibly climbing intake temps or something?

To be fair, 510kw is pretty good going on pump gas - it's likely to be getting quite up there for the 8374 (bearing in mind on E85 that would be well north of 550kw I'd say).    I can't actually remember what @Sub Boy32's turbine speed was but there is a fair chance you are actually getting well up near the limit of the compressor as it stands,  and going from the data @Piggaz got from his tune it seems the 1.05 hot side starts backing up as the compressor backs up around 24psi... so yours is potentially running an even worse pressure ratio across the engine.   It's a shame you don't have turbine speed data as that'd paint a picture VERY quickly.

I doubt very much it's the RB30, the 3" exhaust, the china cooler AND the relatively conservative sized turbo for a 3litre with fairly decent sized cams are more likely to hold the truth of the matter.  If you were going 9174 then I'd say the 1.45 hotside would be the way to go as well, if not just 9180   

Mine was at 123,000 when I had the 0.92 housing on the RB30 at 470kw (98 octane) on a Dynapack. I have now gone to a 1.05 housing on the same engine and it made 500kw on the same Dyno.....but I don't have speed readings for it, but would think it would be similar if not the same.

I also don't think it's the intercooler or exhaust (although 3" is too small for 500kw) you have just got to the end of the Turbo.....9180 is required if you are chasing "Moar Pawar"

[Lithium]

12 hours ago, Sub Boy32 said:

Mine was at 123,000 when I had the 0.92 housing on the RB30 at 470kw (98 octane) on a Dynapack. I have now gone to a 1.05 housing on the same engine and it made 500kw on the same Dyno.....but I don't have speed readings for it, but would think it would be similar if not the same.

I also don't think it's the intercooler or exhaust (although 3" is too small for 500kw) you have just got to the end of the Turbo.....9180 is required if you are chasing "Moar Pawar"

Cheers mate - that's what I thought.  If all other things are pretty close to equal then I'd say it's a STRONG indication that you are out of compressor @Slidewayzzz... or at least very close to it, and should almost consider backing it back slightly as it is.  

There may or may not be improvements to the setup still by upgrading exhaust and intercooler, however right now probably you won't (or shouldn't) reap the rewards without upgrading the turbo.  

Edited October 5, 2017 by Lithium

[Slidewayzzz]

Had the car on the dyno a couple of weeks ago after exhaust upgrade from 3-4". Same everything and made decent gains. Unfortunately we couldn't get the bloody turbo shaft speed stats as we didn't manage to set the speed scaler up properly with the link g4. Didnt want to spend hours on dyno time to get it working so we left it for now.

Went to powercruise last weekend and had the time of my life around the track. Absolute weapon! Didn't manage to find anything that keept up on the back straight. Until i hit the drag strip.. Just couldn't get away in 1st & 2nd. Rather frustrating. So today i went and purchased some 26x10.5x16 MT drag radials hoping to put some power down and it just blows the tires off every time. Went out on some new smooth back roads trying to get a feel for launching and not a hint of grip in 1st & 2nd. Back to the drawing board unfortunately, quite frustrated..... Do i need wider drag radials on 15" rims? Not quite sure..

Anyways, sorry for no shaft speed figures..

Seems pretty obvious ive run out of turbo. Quite gutted it falls on its face after 7k rpm. My 26 revved to the moon and back.

Comparison from 3" to 4"

RW figures

Crank figures

Edited November 21, 2017 by Slidewayzzz

[Birds]

You're surprised about not being able to put down 500kw in a rwd Skyline? lol I struggle with 280!

And you want more power :S

[Leroy Peterson]

You want grip? Traction control...

[Lithium]

15 hours ago, Slidewayzzz said:

Had the car on the dyno a couple of weeks ago after exhaust upgrade from 3-4". Same everything and made decent gains. Unfortunately we couldn't get the bloody turbo shaft speed stats as we didn't manage to set the speed scaler up properly with the link g4. Didnt want to spend hours on dyno time to get it working so we left it for now.

Went to powercruise last weekend and had the time of my life around the track. Absolute weapon! Didn't manage to find anything that keept up on the back straight. Until i hit the drag strip.. Just couldn't get away in 1st & 2nd. Rather frustrating. So today i went and purchased some 26x10.5x16 MT drag radials hoping to put some power down and it just blows the tires off every time. Went out on some new smooth back roads trying to get a feel for launching and not a hint of grip in 1st & 2nd. Back to the drawing board unfortunately, quite frustrated..... Do i need wider drag radials on 15" rims? Not quite sure..

Seems pretty obvious ive run out of turbo. Quite gutted it falls on its face after 7k rpm. My 26 revved to the moon and back.

 

That is huge!  You're getting into brave territory pushing that much without any idea of shaft speed, but I bet the thing is fast as hell.  The revs are likely to be due to the turbo limiting and partly the boost curve, if it stayed flatter it'd give a more "holding on to redline" looking power curve but realistically it's hard to compare with the RB26 as I am betting it's actually making WAY more power at high rpm than the 26 was still?

Sometimes the "peaky" feel is a false economy when part of the reason it looks like it's not doing well up high is how much it is delivering so early is taking the shine off it.  ~500kw at 8000rpm is pretty hearty!

What pressure do you run in the tyres?  Did you do good skids?  Suspension setup etc etc should all come into it as well, but it really can be a mission getting a rwd off the line - if you did with that power though, it should be pretty damn fast

[Birds]

He's well into the power territory where suspension is key and things like driveshaft balance, launch control etc. become important. Chassis dynamics also have their limits given how light these cars are in the rear end. Less power would definitely see him quicker down the quarter mile; this power is simply unmanageable in a GTS-T without massive modifications. A mate recently pulled 9s in his Aristo with similar power on just MT streets, but they are quite heavy vehicles.

[Lithium]

Hmmm it can be done...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gECcCtlz-5c