Help with attesa electronics

[andres14oj]

Hello everyone!

Not sure if I introduced myself before. Name's Andres, from the US, the great state of Texas.

I've been into s13's and s14's for a while now. My latest projects are an s13 with a stock rb25det which I'm currently working on and near completion, working on paint right now. My other is an s14 with an rb25det with bolt ons which I currently daily drive, and boy what a joy that is.

Here's a couple of pictures of both:

 

 

Anyway, I am here today to bother you searching for knowledge from the people who know the mighty gtr more indepth and speak the same language.

Some freaking how, an idea of swapping the entire powertrain and drivetrain from either a 32 or 33 gtr into an s13 has gotten into me and I can't shake it off. Complete with the attesa system. Now, the plan is to keep everything stock, turbos and tune, just the typical fmic, exhaust and filters, and also keep the car as stock looking as possible. And yes, I realize the level of difficulty this task represents, but that's only part of what's attracting me to it. 

The plan is to swap the complete front and rear subframes along with the front strut towers. After reading for a while it seems that the geometry of the r33 suspension is far superior to that of the r32. Parts are also newer which means that generally parts should be in better condition, and the engine doesn't have the same oil problems the r32 does. 

To be honest, the fitting of the parts sounds like a lot of fun to me: measuring, cutting, welding. I've been going through chassis measurements for s13, r32 and r33, and it doesn't really seem very challenging. I have also been pricing stuff... thank god I'll be selling both of my 240sx's soon.

There are a few threads on different sites of people who have done it, unfortunately they are years old and all the pictures are down, and you all know how much pictures can help. Here's a couple that I found from a fellow member from this site, truly inspiring, Im sure you all know who he is:

Ok, I'll get to the point. I need info regarding the electronics of the attesa system, how it works with the abs system to be specific (assuming I won't be using the r32 v-spec or whichever it is that don't use abs). I know the attesa system works together with the abs system, but Im having a little trouble understanding how people delete their abs on their gtr's. I know the abs pump can be bypassed using kit's sold online which includes brake lines, but according to multiple sources the rest of the abs system including electronics, have to stay for the attesa system to work properly. 

I've been trying to understand this diagram. Can anybody tell me to which model it belongs?

Now, before we continue, I know that there are aftermarket controllers out there, but I am not interested. To put it simply, I am not looking to get anything re-tuned. I want to bolt eveything and wire everything on, and have an attesa system on an s13 to work as similar as possible to a gtr minus the abs.

According to that diagram, the attesa connects directly with the abs actuator. I know there's a pump in the engine bay and an abs ecu, by the attesa ecu in the trunk, iirc? I know the pump in the engine bay has an electrical connector. To which unit does the attesa ecu connect directly? Or is it both? 

I know the attesa ecu connects directly to the wheel sensors, g sensor, engine ecu, attesa actuator/solenoids, but I'm having difficulty understanding how it connects to the abs. Can anybody in here help me with that? 

Also, would anybody happen to know where I can find a fsm for an r33?

[djr81]

This is out of the R32 GTR manual.

[KiwiRS4T]

Workshop manuals here:

http://www.skyline.se/dokument/

Good luck with the Attessa - there is a pump above the diff and a reservoir in the boot. Need to connect TPS to ecu and lots more besides!

 

[Duncan]

The quick answer is that both ABS and ATTESSA use the same computer. So all of the inputs go in, like wheel speed, throttle position etc that both systems need, and the ABS and 4WD control go out again.  There is an N1 model that had a no ABS option, in those cases there is a different ATTESSA computer but I bet it has the same sensor inputs.

[andres14oj]

Badass, thanks guys!

So, according to the research I've done, when deleting the abs on a 32 or 33, after removing the actuator from the engine bay, the electrical connectors that connect to this actuator can just stay disconnected and it will not affect the attesa system.

Can anybody confirm?

Ah and yes, the n1 is what I was referring to, I said v-spec hahaha

[KiwiRS4T]

6 hours ago, andres14oj said:

Badass, thanks guys!

So, according to the research I've done, when deleting the abs on a 32 or 33, after removing the actuator from the engine bay, the electrical connectors that connect to this actuator can just stay disconnected and it will not affect the attesa system.

Can anybody confirm?

Ah and yes, the n1 is what I was referring to, I said v-spec hahaha

You don't want a V spec either - that has a computer controlled rear diff instead of a mechanical LSD

[Duncan]

Yes, that should be correct. remove ABS module (unplug), bypass the brake lines (either custom or non-ABS factory lines) and your 4wd should be fine.

[turbo76lx]

Easier way is not to use the factory ATTESA system and use a Full Race stand alone system.  https://www.full-race.com/store/nissan/r14-kit/ets-pro-center-diff-torque-split-controller-for-r32-r33-r34-skyline-gt-r-1/

Also have a look at their S14 kit for some ideas.   https://www.full-race.com/store/nissan/r14-kit/r14-conversion-kit-skyline-gtr-rb26-awd-240sx-swap/

Here is a commodore that was modified to take the GTR running gear, you can see the front hubs use a custom coil over that bolts into the top of the hub.

 

 

 

[andres14oj]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Yes, that should be correct. remove ABS module (unplug), bypass the brake lines (either custom or non-ABS factory lines) and your 4wd should be fine.

beautiful, that is exactly what I wanted to hear. thanks!

1 hour ago, turbo76lx said:

Easier way is not to use the factory ATTESA system and use a Full Race stand alone system.  https://www.full-race.com/store/nissan/r14-kit/ets-pro-center-diff-torque-split-controller-for-r32-r33-r34-skyline-gt-r-1/

Also have a look at their S14 kit for some ideas.   https://www.full-race.com/store/nissan/r14-kit/r14-conversion-kit-skyline-gtr-rb26-awd-240sx-swap/

Here is a commodore that was modified to take the GTR running gear, you can see the front hubs use a custom coil over that bolts into the top of the hub.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! That looks like an epic build, but nothing of which I have in mind. Like I said, I know of aftermarket controllers, including full race's, but like I previously said, Im trying to figure a way out to make this as bolt-on as possible and as close as possible to a stock bnr32 or bcnr33. I think it should be fairly straight forward to bolt on and wire up the stock attesa system and weld on the stock strut towers out of either a 32 or 33 onto an s-chassis, as opposed to using an aftermarket controller and front strut adapters. Which by the way, how easy is it to find people parting out their chassis willing to cut out and ship their strut towers over seas on this forum?

I;m wondering why I haven't come across any builds where people use the stock attesa system on a different chassis. Am I missing something here? Imo, without the abs system, it looks pretty straight forward as long as you have all the parts.

If I've done my research correctly, the attesa system is pretty capable compared to other similar systems in stock form, correct? even with today's tech.

And honestly guys, this, the electronics part, is what's got me thinking about going through with this project.

Because regardless of the chassis dimensions (which we know the 32 and 13 are pretty damn close), the attesa system will try to compensate to deliver torque f/r properly to keep the chassis from loosing traction, right?

Please, tell me fellas, convince me to not go through with this: If I gather all the parts, mechanical parts, sensors, actuators, relays, ecu and everything else except abs crap, would an s13 function properly with this system? Or at least decently...

[GTSBoy]

There's a couple of points worth making here.

1. R32 RWD and AWD front ends are not the same.  The crossmembers are different, where they attach to the chassis rails is different.  This is because of those pesky driveshafts that don't exist on the RWD cars.
2. The location of the upper arm mounting points in the towers should be the same in both RWD and AWD R32s.  But that shouldn't matter, because no-one in their right mind would choose to use R32 front suspension in any car.  Everyone with an R32 would much prefer to have R33/4 front upper control arms, because the R32 ones suck.
3. So now you're looking to graft R33 inner guards into an S13.  Theoretically possible, sure.  But a lot of work.  Will have to be DEAD straight to noto cause you stupid suspension geometry/wheel alignment issues.  That's a lot of very detailed body building work.  If you're OK with that, then fine.
4. When it comes to "stock" ATESSA system performance....yeah, it's pretty good.  But anyone who ever had a GTR realised that the system could be a lot better.  People mod the transfer cases, they use aftermarket controllers, all because the R32 ATESSA system is pretty slow and not the best possible use of the underlying tech.  Hell, even Nissan sped it up and improved the logic through the R33 and R34, plus their various hot versions.

I think you'd be better off using an aftermarket controller straight up.  No questions.  For one thing, the old ATESSA controller boxes are all many years old and are just waiting to die of electronics old age anyway.  Ever seen a box of 90s electronics full of shat out capacitor guts?

I think you could make an S13 swallow all the gear you need to make it a mini GTR.  I think it would be over capitalising in a car of essentially zero value to a massive extent.  Like Project Binky but without the cool video series to go with it.  If it's just for your entertainment, then go ahead.

[andres14oj]

4 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

There's a couple of points worth making here.

1. R32 RWD and AWD front ends are not the same.  The crossmembers are different, where they attach to the chassis rails is different.  This is because of those pesky driveshafts that don't exist on the RWD cars.
2. The location of the upper arm mounting points in the towers should be the same in both RWD and AWD R32s.  But that shouldn't matter, because no-one in their right mind would choose to use R32 front suspension in any car.  Everyone with an R32 would much prefer to have R33/4 front upper control arms, because the R32 ones suck.
3. So now you're looking to graft R33 inner guards into an S13.  Theoretically possible, sure.  But a lot of work.  Will have to be DEAD straight to noto cause you stupid suspension geometry/wheel alignment issues.  That's a lot of very detailed body building work.  If you're OK with that, then fine.
4. When it comes to "stock" ATESSA system performance....yeah, it's pretty good.  But anyone who ever had a GTR realised that the system could be a lot better.  People mod the transfer cases, they use aftermarket controllers, all because the R32 ATESSA system is pretty slow and not the best possible use of the underlying tech.  Hell, even Nissan sped it up and improved the logic through the R33 and R34, plus their various hot versions.

I think you'd be better off using an aftermarket controller straight up.  No questions.  For one thing, the old ATESSA controller boxes are all many years old and are just waiting to die of electronics old age anyway.  Ever seen a box of 90s electronics full of shat out capacitor guts?

I think you could make an S13 swallow all the gear you need to make it a mini GTR.  I think it would be over capitalising in a car of essentially zero value to a massive extent.  Like Project Binky but without the cool video series to go with it.  If it's just for your entertainment, then go ahead.

I do realize the frame rails on the front where the subframe mounts is different on both cars. That's why I posted that picture of the modified s13 rails, to show what I have planned in mind, measure, cut and re-inforce. Not only do the rails have to be modded to clear the front driveshaft, but if Im not mistaked, not all the mounting points where the subframe bolts down are at the same level, correct?

Ive been looking at these sheets. First one's for the s13. Unfortunately the one for the 33 has really low resolution and some of the numbers and measuring points are very hard to read. Anybody's got a better version?

On your second point, I am leaning more towards the 33 components. I have read what you're saying about its superiority over the 32, and like I said, the newer the model, usually the better the condition.

And yes, I would be looking at welding in new strut towers. That probably will be the second hardest part of the project. But if done correctly and according to the dimensions from whichever model I grab them from (r33 hopefully), that plus the addition of the subframe with all of its original components should give me pretty much a gtr suspension, no?

Ok, so the 32 attesa system is pretty slow and it was vastly improved with its successors. Guess that also leaves the 32 attesa out of the question. 

About an aftermarket controller. You guys don't think that would be a little overkill? Im talking about a stock engine here and a car that wont see much track use, if any at all. I have read that tuning this system is some serious business, especially during launch and decel, front diffs flying out of the oil pan and shit... So, for these reasons, I think a stock system would work just fine for me.

Also,  we can't start assuming our old electronics are crap because of age. Remember, I would also be running a stock engine ecu. I also run an early z32 ecu on my rb25 s14. I have worked on cars for some time now, and I have to say, I rarely come across bad electronic units, unless somebody's done something wrong and messed them up. I believe these are solid, built to last parts. I lmao everytime "mechanics" want to solve every issue replacing the ecu. Never fails. They hit a little snag, and they go straight to the ecu, only to find out a few hundred bucks later that that wasn't the problem. Plenty of these on my side of the country.

I think that it's a safe investment if you are willing to loose a chassis. Think of it this way, I would have a complete powertrain and drivetrain out of a gtr that can be sold as "running". 

And although it would be a super fun project (this time I will leave painting out of the equation, that really is a pita...), I would be expecting a good performer at the end. If done properly, perfectly fitted front strut towers and front subframe, and properly wired attesa system, what would make you doubt the performance of such a project?

I really appreciate the help, thanks everyone!

Edited April 7, 2018 by andres14oj

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, andres14oj said:

Also,  we can't start assuming our old electronics are crap because of age. Remember, I would also be running a stock engine ecu. I also run an early z32 ecu on my rb25 s14. I have worked on cars for some time now, and I have to say, I rarely come across bad electronic units, unless somebody's done something wrong and messed them up. I believe these are solid, built to last parts. I lmao everytime "mechanics" want to solve every issue replacing the ecu. Never fails. They hit a little snag, and they go straight to the ecu, only to find out a few hundred bucks later that that wasn't the problem. Plenty of these on my side of the country.

Actually, you can take it as gospel that old vehicle electronics systems are aging and dying.  The HICAS CUs on R32s are dying.  Dud capacitors usually, although there was a batch that got loose screws running around inside that caused shorting and smoke release.  The ATESSA boxes are pretty much the same level of thing.  The pressure switches and various other electronic components in the ATESSA circuits are famous for dying, at least in the last 10 years or so, as they get old.

As to  the heights of mounting points in 2WD/AWD Skyline chassis......yes, at least for the R32s they are different.  It's just not possible to unbolt one and offer up the other.  Needs significant rework.  I think that R33s can handle a crossmember swap.  So ultimately you may be best off considering removing the front chassis rails from the S13 and seeing about sticking in a complete R33 front - rails, inner guards, crossmember.  Then deal with the problem of stitching the outer guards and rad support etc over that mess later.

[andres14oj]

6 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Actually, you can take it as gospel that old vehicle electronics systems are aging and dying.  The HICAS CUs on R32s are dying.  Dud capacitors usually, although there was a batch that got loose screws running around inside that caused shorting and smoke release.  The ATESSA boxes are pretty much the same level of thing.  The pressure switches and various other electronic components in the ATESSA circuits are famous for dying, at least in the last 10 years or so, as they get old.

As to  the heights of mounting points in 2WD/AWD Skyline chassis......yes, at least for the R32s they are different.  It's just not possible to unbolt one and offer up the other.  Needs significant rework.  I think that R33s can handle a crossmember swap.  So ultimately you may be best off considering removing the front chassis rails from the S13 and seeing about sticking in a complete R33 front - rails, inner guards, crossmember.  Then deal with the problem of stitching the outer guards and rad support etc over that mess later.

Interesting, didn't know this was a known problem. Thanks for the tip.

about the swapping of the entire rails with strut towers, that's a thought. Hadn't really consider it, and I still think modifying the stock rails and welding on just the strut towers would be easier, but your suggestion is something to seriously consider.

[andres14oj]

rather than starting a new thread, I'll just ask in here: Does anyone know of any affordable method of shipping big packages worldwide without a hurry? Could I be lucky enough to meet someone in here who does this for a living and could help? Reason I ask is because I came across this deal which seems about perfect for me to get started with this project. That is if I can import it to the states without breaking the bank. Check it out:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Skyline-R33-GTR-BCNR33-Radiator-Support-Bare-Front-Half-Cut-Chassis-4/382161654161?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D03206c1f31d64348a04528a3eded1805%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D382161654161%26itm%3D382161654161&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A5d4700bb-69c8-11e8-b7b8-74dbd1803b23|parentrq%3Ad6ca97911630a8672e223f01fff60608|iid%3A1

I've been having trouble finding r33 gtr complete half cuts here in the states. The rest of the major components such as complete subframes and powertrain can be obtain reasonably easy.

That deal would be perfect to modify an s-chassis.

Thanks

[andres14oj]

On 4/7/2018 at 10:30 AM, GTSBoy said:

There's a couple of points worth making here.

1. R32 RWD and AWD front ends are not the same.  The crossmembers are different, where they attach to the chassis rails is different.  This is because of those pesky driveshafts that don't exist on the RWD cars.
2. The location of the upper arm mounting points in the towers should be the same in both RWD and AWD R32s.  But that shouldn't matter, because no-one in their right mind would choose to use R32 front suspension in any car.  Everyone with an R32 would much prefer to have R33/4 front upper control arms, because the R32 ones suck.
3. So now you're looking to graft R33 inner guards into an S13.  Theoretically possible, sure.  But a lot of work.  Will have to be DEAD straight to noto cause you stupid suspension geometry/wheel alignment issues.  That's a lot of very detailed body building work.  If you're OK with that, then fine.
4. When it comes to "stock" ATESSA system performance....yeah, it's pretty good.  But anyone who ever had a GTR realised that the system could be a lot better.  People mod the transfer cases, they use aftermarket controllers, all because the R32 ATESSA system is pretty slow and not the best possible use of the underlying tech.  Hell, even Nissan sped it up and improved the logic through the R33 and R34, plus their various hot versions.

I think you'd be better off using an aftermarket controller straight up.  No questions.  For one thing, the old ATESSA controller boxes are all many years old and are just waiting to die of electronics old age anyway.  Ever seen a box of 90s electronics full of shat out capacitor guts?

I think you could make an S13 swallow all the gear you need to make it a mini GTR.  I think it would be over capitalising in a car of essentially zero value to a massive extent.  Like Project Binky but without the cool video series to go with it.  If it's just for your entertainment, then go ahead.

Ok everyone. I've been in the lookout for bcnr33 parts here in the states with no luck. No luck with canada either, and it seems that shipping from your side of the pacific would kill any good deal on a complete stripped front clip, not to mention bcnr33 full partouts aren't very common.

Got a question for you: does the part in red also apply for the r33 gtr and non-gtr? If things keep going this way, I may just have to settle for swapping the inner guards only and modifying the frame rails like I had originally planned. And if the non-gtr r33 inner guards are the same as the gtr ones they might just be easier to find.

[GTSBoy]

Yup. Same same. Not same same between 32/33 of course.  Just any given RWD/AWD pair.

[andres14oj]

On 8/22/2018 at 5:35 PM, GTSBoy said:

Yup. Same same. Not same same between 32/33 of course.  Just any given RWD/AWD pair.

sweet. Thanks a lot man!

[andres14oj]

lookie what i found here...

[andres14oj]

been a few years since i put this project in the back burner. i managed to get the r33 strut towers welded in place before life got in the way. huge thanks to @Shoota_77 for all his help providing measurements that otherwise would have been next to impossible to obtain here in the states.

front bcnr33 subframe is half way installed too, still got to reinforce the front frame rails and make the cutouts for the front axles.

the pandemic retarded prices have forced me to change plans and go with an rb25det awd instead of the rb26. And to think back when I started this thread i could have gone with the rb26 for the same price... engine and tranny's already sitting in my shop.

anyway, i guess the point of this post is to thank you for your responses regarding the attesa system control suggestions.

I'll be going with the full race ets pro like some of you suggested.

will be taking on this project very soon here. might start a build thread 

thanks again

 

[Shoota_77]

7 hours ago, andres14oj said:

been a few years since i put this project in the back burner. i managed to get the r33 strut towers welded in place before life got in the way. huge thanks to @Shoota_77 for all his help providing measurements that otherwise would have been next to impossible to obtain here in the states.

front bcnr33 subframe is half way installed too, still got to reinforce the front frame rails and make the cutouts for the front axles.

the pandemic retarded prices have forced me to change plans and go with an rb25det awd instead of the rb26. And to think back when I started this thread i could have gone with the rb26 for the same price... engine and tranny's already sitting in my shop.

anyway, i guess the point of this post is to thank you for your responses regarding the attesa system control suggestions.

I'll be going with the full race ets pro like some of you suggested.

will be taking on this project very soon here. might start a build thread 

thanks again

 

Hi mate, glad to hear you got somewhere with it.  I’ve wondered from time to time where you got to with it all!

Definitely start a build thread as anything you do could help someone else down the track.

Look forward to seeing what you come up with!