R33 diff advise

[Jackdr]

So I have an r33 gtst complete where in that I am grafting into another car. Problem is the diff ratio is not right, I bought another r200 diff with the right ratio (3.7) which is from an S15 Silvia I was lead to believe that it's a straight bolt and swap but it appears it isn't as the flange on the axles are different. 

I'm just wondering if I can change the crown wheel and pinion can anyone give some advice on this? 

I do note that the r33 diff looks a bit larger than that S15 even though they appear to have all the same bolt patterns for mounting

[Duncan]

Yep, just swap across the crown and pinion, make sure backlash is OK and Robert is your father's brother.

 

[GTSBoy]

Um.....I wouldn't count on it. That diff on the left is a weird looking thing. It has a pipe across the top like a V-spec diff, and it does not have normal 5 bolt axle flanges. I'm not even sure that it is therefore the actual diff from an R33. What is the wiring connector on the top above the RHS axle flange? On the crossover pipe.

Is it some sort of Z chassis diff? An R230? Might explain the apparent larger size. If it is an R230, then the CW&P will not just swap over.

Otherwise, what Duncan said is true of R33 and S14/5 diffs.

[Duncan]

hmm good point, i seem to remember vlsd was an option on r33 gtst as well as vspec GTRs. Should look at the pics before posting

[GTSBoy]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i seem to remember vlsd was an option on r33 gtst

That would be A-LSD, not V. But yes. Notwithstanding that....the side flanges are odd. Did the active diff cars have different axles in some way?

[Jackdr]

It definitely came out of an r33, I pulled it out myself.

How do identify this? I think the diff out of the r33 is slightly wider, is this normal? What is the typical bolt pattern for the axles?

[GTSBoy]

Normal 5 bolt R200 stubs are 5 bolt with spacing much like what your picture shows.....but your flanges look too round.  Just look at the flanges on this lot to see what I mean

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=r33+diff&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRgMnZ2d3jAhVFWysKHWHVBicQ_AUIESgB&biw=1519&bih=819

 

[Jackdr]

I see what you mean, looking at the various photos on line I ask if it could be a gtr diff?

How can I identify it, will there be any numbers anywhere or certain measurements I can take?

[GTSBoy]

It's not a GTR diff. GTRs have 6 bolt axle flanges. Not the 3x2 = 6 bolt flanges like your S chassis diff. 6 evenly spaced bolts, on "ears" like the 5 bolter pictures. GTRs also have a CV joint type input flange, not a flange to pick up a uni-joint.

Follow the wiring loom in the car body that would plug into that connector on the top of the diff. Find out where it goes to. If it goes to a CU up in the boot somewhere, then the car looks like it had an active diff. I've not paid any attention to active diff R33s, because they have AIDS. But for all I know, they might have different flanges.

Show a photo of the matching end of a driveshaft so we can see if it looks normal.

[Duncan]

well...while I'm also interested to confirm what exactly this is to understand the unusual items better....in the end the real question for you is still whether the crown wheel and pinion can be swapped over. 

Externally, the pinion looks the same (they don't always, r33 gtst normally has an abs sender on the pinion, and the older "long nose" r200 pinions won't fit either) but you need to pull the centre out of each and find out if the crown wheel will physically fit.

My guess is that this is a A-LSD R200 (google search pics look to have the same flanges) and the crown/pinion will work for you, but the casing, stub axles and centre are no use except for someone who wants to keep or repair an A-LSD car. At the time they were a good concept, but in practice vlsd and mechancial lsd were simpler and cheaper (vlsd) or as effective (mechanical) so not many of these were sold.

[Jackdr]

Ok so measuring these two diffs, the one out of the r33 measures 325mm wide from flange to flange where as the s15 is 315mm also the r33 is shorter from the nose to centre of axle is 280mm vs 300 on the s15. 

The axles from end to end are 640 and 590mm respectively.

basically what I want to end up with is a diff for the r33 cradle that I have with a 3.7 ratio and an aftermarket  LSD which I haven't bought yet I bought the s15 diff for the 3.7 ratio.

What is the best way to achieve this do I put the S15 diff straight in, if I do this what axles do I use can those stub axles coming out of the r33 diff and go into the S15 diff, then what about the width will this end up being a problem or is it just a cv on the end of the axle that needs to be changed? 

That r33 diff seems heavier than the s15 so if it just has active stuff I'm not going to use it's extra weight for nothing. 

Further more I don't want to set this car up for an odd ball diff I would like to know if I blow it I can get a replacement easy and don't have to search for anything special.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Jackdr

[GTSBoy]

I guess the ALSD must be wider to make some space for the crap they have to put into the sides for the clutches. I'm surprised by the length difference. This is yet another reason why "all R200s are not the same as all other R200s".

Your best bet would be to obtain another R33 diff. Just a regular VLSD out of any turbo, auto or manual. That housing will give you want you need + the required stub axles.

Then you just buy your mech LSD centre to suit. If you buy Nismo, it will come with new stub axles (equal length, to replace the unequal length ones that live inside VLSDs), but if you buy KAAZ, or Cusco etc, I think they reuse the unequal length stubs. The 5 bolt driveshafts you show look the same as any other R chassis shaft, so they should fit to any 5 bolt stub.

I would not assume that the CW&P on the active diff is the same as the others. There are a few ways that Nissan have done that differently - mainly thickness of the mounting flange and bolt diameter. This won't matter if you don't try to use that active diff for anything. If you get another R33 diff you should be able to move the 3.7 gears across.

You could dismantle these though and work out what is what for yourself. Worthwhile exercise IMO.

 

[Jackdr]

This being the case would I not be better to use the s15 diff I already have and use the matching axles or are the different lengths between the S and R subframe/chassis.

Or if I just replace the diff from an r33, does it need to be a turbo?

And what about the width is this typical of R33 or is the active one wider ie do I need to replace the r33 axles and diff to get the right length.

Lastly is the active diff actually worth anything?

Edited July 31, 2019 by Jackdr

[GTSBoy]

The active diff is worth precisely nothing.

The problem with the 3x2 diffs/axles is that the CVs in them are tripod style, not proper CVs like the 5 bolters. They are not quite as good. Still reasonably strong. I have them in my R32 (because I'm using an S15 helical centre in my R32 housing with an R34 4.11 CW&P gearset) but I wouldn't try it with lots more power than I have (only ~200rwkW).

The reason to use R33 turbo diff is that the NA diffs are the same 3x2 stuff as the S chassis diffs. And they are open (not LSD, not that it really matters if you are going to replace the centre anyway - but keep in mind that the open diffs have equal length splines on teh stub axles, so you can't use the exact same aftermarket centre in them in many cases).

[Jackdr]

Ok makes sense, what about the axles I have are they any good? Ie is the normal r33 turbo diff the same width as the active one?

[Duncan]

On 30/07/2019 at 3:48 PM, Jackdr said:

So I have an r33 gtst complete where in that I am grafting into another car. Problem is the diff ratio is not right....3.7....

...basically what I want to end up with is a diff for the r33 cradle that I have with a 3.7 ratio and an aftermarket  LSD which I haven't bought yet I bought the s15 diff for the 3.7 ratio.....

....I think the basic issue here is that unfortunately your starting point for your swap is problematic (an a-lsd car). It may even have been cheaper to buy for exactly this reason.

So you want to use the subframe, control arms, hubs etc from the r33 (because you already have them) which means the driveshaft to driveshaft total width needs to be r33.  I understand the s15 diff with your current driveshafts won't do that (requires different stub axles and/or driveshaft lengths).

Interestingly, you might be able to find an example of someone who has put an s15 diff into an r33 because S15 have a helical/quaife type centre and not a mechanical one which can be considered superior. A definite answer there will tell you what missing parts you need to get the s15 diff into the r33 setup. Also double check the rear hat mountings as there are some variations there too.

Alternatively, you can still pull the rear hat off both diffs and just find out if the c+p will swap across. I agree with GTSBoy this is unlikely but it is free and immediate to find out....Unfortunately even the c+p do fit, you may not be able to swap the a-lsd centre for a mechanical one which i assume is also your intention. It's not just that the a-lsd centre would be hard to replace, you also have to deal with the electronic control system and it's inputs to get it working in your swap.

Easiest but least expensive way out is to buy a regular r33 gtst diff and driveshaft set, or even a complete rear subframe. This way you get a definite solution but you'll end up with a lot of current stuff unused.

 

[BK]

On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 6:28 PM, GTSBoy said:

That would be A-LSD, not V. But yes. Notwithstanding that....the side flanges are odd. Did the active diff cars have different axles in some way?

Active diffs are wider with shorter axles / driveshaft's in gtst and Gtr. The stub axle / half shafts have round flanges on both. Gtst is 5 even bolt, GTR is 6 even bolt. Equal length splines too on left and right half shafts.

[Jackdr]

So long story short I need a normal viscous LSD r33 gtst diff and I also need the axles?

[Duncan]

seems easiest to me, assuming you don't want to take the hats off them and check c+p interchangeability

BTW, what's it going in? Big job to fit one of these rear ends to something

[Jackdr]

I am fitting it to an 84 Capri, along with an s15 front cross member and suspension, big brembos, aluminium injected Windsor V8, oh an aircon, will be a nice street car. Yes big mission this job btw.

I might actually Chuck one of these diffs in my Evo when the diff in it blows.

Just another thought, can I just replace the stub axles on the s15 diff and the use the r33 turbo axles?

How do the stub axles come out? Are they on a snap ring?