Mistakes were made, my R34 Story

[GTSBoy]

16 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

We'll see how it goes with bushes only. I am sure this cope will fail and the answer will be to drop the subframe and put nismo rubber bushes in there instead.

There's a fair chance that my bushes are Nismo, because I'm reasonably sure that when asked the question (when putting the subframe into the car in ~2012) "What bushes do you want to run?", I'm pretty sure I would have answered "The stiff ones!".

I had to put some silicone grease onto the GKTech inserts I jammed into them last week, because the bushes were quite resistant to having something jammed up their jacksies. So, I reckon you'll be best off doing Nismo + inserts.

And, if I'd known you had PU bushes in the subframe AND PU pineapples, I perhaps would have said earlier that that's probably not a good idea. The pineapples are only intended to work with the stock type bushes, because those have a crush tube (which is what makes it end up looking like there is sloppy space in there - but doesn't, because the crush tube does make contact steel to steel) and the pineapples live in the space between the subframe's outer tube and the lower washer/bracket. But the PU bushes don't leave the space in the same way that the stock format ones do, and they do end up fighting for space.

Order some bushes and collars and get to it.

[MBS206]

Bahahaha, bloody hell Greg.
You've got bent and broken things, but instead, you're replacing perfectly good items. This story keeps getting more gregged!

 

Also, I'd 100% replace that reo if I were in your shoes, unless you panel beater is REALLY good. Even if you put another GTT one on there. Just because you've done so much nice body work lately, I'd say repair the body work fully  If it were more drift car spec, I'd be all "Hit it with a hammer and send it!"

[GTSBoy]

14 minutes ago, MBS206 said:

If it were more drift car spec, I'd be all "Hit it with a hammer and send it!"

I think he's already demonstrated that that's the way he's treating it post the paint jail release.

[Kinkstaah]

Yeah this was also my suspicion, that pineapples exist to reinforce the OEM bushes because people CBF taking the subframe out to do it. Basically that pineapples and subframe lock collars perform the same intended task.

The cup still bolts in under the bush/crush tube.. as to how it'll go I don't know. Two of the bushes at the back look mostly the right shape. The ones up front clearly have the impressions left by the pineapples. Time will tell whether this will work/make any difference. Ideally I would not want any lock collars or pineapples, I'd just want the bush to do the job of the bush.

Time will tell if the car works correctly with only the poly bushes in the state they're in. Worth seeing, I think. 

19 minutes ago, MBS206 said:

Bahahaha, bloody hell Greg.
You've got bent and broken things, but instead, you're replacing perfectly good items. This story keeps getting more gregged!

 

Also, I'd 100% replace that reo if I were in your shoes, unless you panel beater is REALLY good. Even if you put another GTT one on there. Just because you've done so much nice body work lately, I'd say repair the body work fully  If it were more drift car spec, I'd be all "Hit it with a hammer and send it!"

What panel work are you looking at? I'm shelving everything from the A pillar forward because it's shit/doesn't function and this was before I drove off at the track and then drove into somebody!

A second hand Reo and brackets is $1000, which is just cray when Mr.Hammer turns this piece of metal in regular metal shape.. considering it needs to be drilled to be adapted to the GTR headlight brackets anyway...

So I'm all for $0 instead of $2000 (new 34 GTR reo) for the same result lol.

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, Kinkstaah said:

Basically that pineapples and subframe lock collars perform the same intended task.

Yes no yes. Pineapple rings do do a certain amount of subframe "locking up", in that they do add some resistance to lateral movements. But the primary reason they exist is to alter the driveline angle. Depending on how you install them you can either increase or decrease rear traction __ a little bit __ by changing the angle of the lower control arms relative to the car/pinion angle.

The thing is, given what they are, how and where they are installed, their lack of engagement with anything in particular, there's a limit to how much benefit they can offer.

The GKTech collars put metal into the space in the stock format bushes, thereby limiting how much give they have. The rubber is still there to take up some force, albeit perhaps preloaded a little by having some extra metal jammed up into it, but the increase in stiffness comes from making it so that the stock format bush can't deflect that large bit of rubber over into the space adjacent to it, in any direction. Top AND bottom. Which the pineapples certainly do not do.

As I said in my other thread - I'm convinced.

[MBS206]

1 hour ago, Kinkstaah said:

Yeah this was also my suspicion, that pineapples exist to reinforce the OEM bushes because people CBF taking the subframe out to do it. Basically that pineapples and subframe lock collars perform the same intended task.

The cup still bolts in under the bush/crush tube.. as to how it'll go I don't know. Two of the bushes at the back look mostly the right shape. The ones up front clearly have the impressions left by the pineapples. Time will tell whether this will work/make any difference. Ideally I would not want any lock collars or pineapples, I'd just want the bush to do the job of the bush.

Time will tell if the car works correctly with only the poly bushes in the state they're in. Worth seeing, I think. 

What panel work are you looking at? I'm shelving everything from the A pillar forward because it's shit/doesn't function and this was before I drove off at the track and then drove into somebody!

A second hand Reo and brackets is $1000, which is just cray when Mr.Hammer turns this piece of metal in regular metal shape.. considering it needs to be drilled to be adapted to the GTR headlight brackets anyway...

So I'm all for $0 instead of $2000 (new 34 GTR reo) for the same result lol.

A Pillar forward?

 

The part above I was just looking at was the reo bar, I'd replace it, UNLESS the panel beater is GOOD.

From your early photos, it did look like the chassis might be tweaked, or at the very least there was tweaks in radiator support.

I'd personally do a new / second hand unmolested reo bar, and drill it, only so I know underneath the pretty painted front bar, there's not a mess of other metal that's been hit and smacked.

[Kinkstaah]

On 3/5/2025 at 5:36 PM, MBS206 said:

A Pillar forward?

I was very unimpressed with how the car came up from the A pillar forward, before I hit things (twice). It all has to go. It had to go, but now it has to go... more.

So we finally found the very first Shennanigans with the entirely perfectly setup engine that had no problems being pulled apart to improve on 'was perfectly fine'.

Cam bearings looked a bit... stock. Which isn't entirely bad given they were stock and this is a ~20 year old engine. So new cam bearings are on the way because it's somewhat difficult to get to this stage to do it later, and it will trash the block. It was quite unusual that it wasn't done when the perfectly new-looking VCM cam was originally installed by [unknown]

What IS unusual is the cam that was installed there was advanced SIX degrees. As to why there is no way to know.. however it could have been @Dose Pipe Sutututu's mate who wanted a larger cam sound but also wanted it to come on earlier to be more usable.

This is my dyno sheet with the previous setup - This cam is not supposed to peak until 7000+ RPM, according to VCM. This is what lead me down the whole 'my heads/intake setup is running out of puff and can't support the cam' line of thinking to begin with.

Anyway too late now - New cam is in!

It could be rather funny if this smaller cam acts like a larger cam because it isn't advanced six degrees.

In the spirit of everything is working amazingly - the COMP cam required no dialling in whatsoever. It was about 0.5 degrees advanced, which seems pretty bang on. Any adjustment either way would be further out. I'm told as a chain breaks in it ends up regarding back about 0.5 a degree as the chain breaks in, making it bang on.

In the spirit of everything was previously working amazingly - The timing gear that was taken out turned out to be was an N-Motion double timing chain kit, with adjustable cam gear (which is how it was 6 degrees advanced) and all looks entirely perfectly new. It also had a Torrington bearing, which was one of the reasons I ended up getting the Cloyes kit which they used in the C5R 24 hour racecar - Because I couldn't confirm what was in the engine when talking to Tony Mamo. I did believe however it was a Double chain kit of some kind... but found no supporting documentation or evidence for it.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

When's the rear mounted turbo kit coming? Needs dose and V8 chop idle lol.

[Kinkstaah]

More assembly going on, with all sorts of "bolt right on bro" scenarios going on here.

Smartly, PTV clearance was checked. And I say smartly because it turns out that the intake was 0.009" from piston meeting valve. This is 0.23mm. This is very not okay.

A fast meeting was facilitated between engine builder in Australia and engine builder in the USA which was actually incredibly helpful and constructive actually, various ideas thrown around to get around this issue including:

1) Retard the cam timing which would have brought the exhaust valve closer to meeting piston (it was 0.065") which was uncomfortably close to begin with, and change the cam profile making it 'laggier'
2) Much larger head gaskets which would reduce compression, but half the point of this was to increase compression.
3) New set of pistons ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)
4) All of the above
5) Get ghetto

The concept is you get sticky sandpaper and stick it back to a valve, slightly larger than the valve you/I'm using, like say from a LS3/rectangle port head. You now have a very super advanced flycutting tool to modify your pistons in your block.

Then you install it in your head, and attach the other end of the head to a drill. Then you just replicate your valve smashing into a piston with your spinning drill.

 

This is the result.
Repeat many times.

It is strongly recommended you have some kind of fixed stop when doing this for extremely obvious reasons because if you press too hard then you're well into apocalyptic repercussion land.

The minimum clearance on the intake valve is now 0.075" this is still in the "Too close to be really comfortable" and into "It should be fine" land. Supposedly in the real world the clearances will be slightly bigger. Guess this is what happens when people push envelopes for N/A engines instead of adding boost!

Time to move onto the new, upgraded, higher ratio roller rockers from Yellaterra, all tapped and threaded with a stronger bolt for better stability. Very nice.

Lets see how they fit.



For f**ks sake. Time to bring the grinder out for these aftermarket, machined and CNC'd heads. Looks like the new, beefier rocker from YellaTerra has gone from Bolt on part to "Bolt on part".

Well, lets see how this bolt on crank scraper and windage tray goes then, shall we?


There actually is more clearance than they specify for this thing, but seeing it all move as you check it is terrifying when you see it all so very very very very nearly hit things. But after all, this is what the item is designed to do after all and actually did bolt on perfectly and have enough clearance to everything and some very clear and direct instructions. So +1 to Improved Racing I suppose.



As above with the windage tray on. Photo of breaker bar wonkiness for added lols.

Next up: Oil pump/front cover/water pump/sump and then it's time to actually install the heads, pushrods, head bolts, valve cover gaskets and such is all there and ready to go.

(except the oil pump bolts which were previously longer for more clearance with the previously perfectly installed double row timing chain).

There's definitely a sense that someone other than us has been here before and done everything perfectly, or at least considered it and came up with working solutions. Perhaps the previous cam was 6deg advanced to avoid PTV issues with the milled stock heads?

In any case when I attempt to sell this stuff the buyers are going to be very directly informed.

[GTSBoy]

I'm confused. Does this qualify as "Gregging" or are you somehow avoiding the Gregging?

[silviaz]

LS is a good motor, but it hurts my soul when I see it in a RB. Guess it fixes the oiling issues lol.

[MBS206]

3 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

I'm confused. Does this qualify as "Gregging" or are you somehow avoiding the Gregging?

It's going to be gregged when it spins a bearing (it's in a Skyline, it's inevitable) and he takes out that super close windage tray 😛

 

Greg, did you say you changed the roller rocker RATIO or just the type you're using?

[GTSBoy]

18 minutes ago, MBS206 said:

Greg, did you say you changed the roller rocker RATIO or just the type you're using?

I think both. Higher ratio and more stout. I think at least part of his lift increase came from the rocker.

[Kinkstaah]

Yep, both. The ratio is 1.8 instead of OEM being 1.7. The rocker bodies are modified with a larger bolt hole and re-threaded with 10mm holes instead of the 8mm YT has stock. Finding out they don't actually fit the stock castings cause a lot of un-impressment by the person in the USA who tapped the new holes for the 'upgraded' YT product. He was very unhappy with them given their previous design did not require 'clearancing'

[MBS206]

I just want to double check this....

When you measured PTV, you measured it with the new roller rockers installed too yes?

 

I kind of read the above as "we did PTV, then moved on to roller rockers..."

I'm sure all is fine, but my brain is tweaking...

[Kinkstaah]

Yes, it was checked with the roller rockers installed using a LS7 lifter that had been converted to a solid lifter with a dummy spring at 0 lash with a stock length pushrod.

With the Johnson lifters longer pushrods were needed which are now 7.700" and 110 wall. Long thiccbois.

People much more knowledgeable than I am are doing the measuring! 

[Kinkstaah]

Getting Dangerously close to being ready to go back in the car.

Rockers in with clearance castings now (and a quick check with the USA for the torque settings for the larger custom bolts)



Covers and ported FAST Manifold sitting on there.

Not fully tightened down as there's some clearancing required for the water pump with the earlier LS1 water pump styles.

Example of the clearancing needing to be done:



The body has to be ground a little but I'm struggling finding an actual piece of it.
The later variant of water pump resolves the issue as the manifold was designed around it. It only came on the VZ LS1 in Australia, it got a different pulley for Gen4 motors.

(it also costs $450... vs... $0).

[The Bogan]

3 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

Getting Dangerously close to being ready to go back in the car.

Rockers in with clearance castings now (and a quick check with the USA for the torque settings for the larger custom bolts)



Covers and ported FAST Manifold sitting on there.

Not fully tightened down as there's some clearancing required for the water pump with the earlier LS1 water pump styles.

Example of the clearancing needing to be done:



The body has to be ground a little but I'm struggling finding an actual piece of it.
The later variant of water pump resolves the issue as the manifold was designed around it. It only came on the VZ LS1 in Australia, it got a different pulley for Gen4 motors.

(it also costs $450... vs... $0).

Could you not use "thermal" spacers to give the clearance, like the ones I used between the blower and head? That raised the manifold height by around 10-15mm

Albeit the ones I used were for cathedral ports, but I assume they have similar for rectangular ports????

[Kinkstaah]

My heads are cathedral port!

It's likely possible, but I don't want to add any extra moving parts (I know they don't move) between the heads, manifolds, etc. It will also affect how injectors/fuel rails etc sit and I don't really know if it would change how the FAST manifold goes/sits/fits. I have the LS6 steam pipes already as I have a very late LS1 block so it should be fine.

I couldn't find anyone who had ever actually used one for this purpose, it seems 100% of people grind the water pump. The thermal spacers are 12mm and are half way to the cost of the newer water pump anyhow... so if it comes to that I suppose I'd rather buy a new pump.

The bearing in the pump I do have is a little.. clunky, but it hasn't done that much time and I never noticed it when the car was together in the past few years, so..

[MBS206]

17 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

My heads are cathedral port!

It's likely possible, but I don't want to add any extra moving parts (I know they don't move) between the heads, manifolds, etc. It will also affect how injectors/fuel rails etc sit and I don't really know if it would change how the FAST manifold goes/sits/fits. I have the LS6 steam pipes already as I have a very late LS1 block so it should be fine.

I couldn't find anyone who had ever actually used one for this purpose, it seems 100% of people grind the water pump. The thermal spacers are 12mm and are half way to the cost of the newer water pump anyhow... so if it comes to that I suppose I'd rather buy a new pump.

The bearing in the pump I do have is a little.. clunky, but it hasn't done that much time and I never noticed it when the car was together in the past few years, so..

Change the pump... Or you'll likely regreg it in 12 months time if it's clunky...