Are newer cars worth owning and keeping?

[Leroy Peterson]

I watch car reviews on yootoob and sometimes I can't help but be curious if new car 'quirks & features' are all that worthwhile. If all the fancy functions and launch controls are worth it?

Call me a bit old skool and cynical, but newer cars come at a major cost (not just financially, but complexity and longevity):

• direct injection build up and upgrade/replacement costs
• infotainment systems that age like milk
• gearboxes designed for 0-100kmh numbers
• no room in engine bay to adequately troubleshoot/fix/upgrade anything
• built to the most stringent emission laws, resulting in inefficiencies and compromise
• ugly c pillars and low bonnets resulting in all cars looking like mazda 6's
• different driving modes which alter everything and make aftermarket support limited
• engine noise coming through speakers with no option to disable
• crappy tyres and wheels that buckle or blow out multiple times a year
• complexities and specific tools mean you're at the mercy of dealerships

The only newer car I've ever driven is my 2018 work vehicle. And it's pretty barebones. So is it just me?
Do I need to drive some of these newer cars to be swayed? Am I just burnt from owning 90's cars where HICAS is a safety hazard, not a feature? And GTR AWD plus twin turbo makes them soul-sapping to work on? And 'Power' or 'Eco' buttons don't actually do anything anymore? Am I too skeptical that allthese newer 'quirks & features' will ultimately break and can't be repaired? I mean, it took like 15 years and $100k pricetag for R34GTR to get a replacement screen for the G's & boost.

The only newer cars (for weekend use) that even tempts me is Lexus F models. NA V8, comfy, sound, dual injectors to reduce direct injection build-up, relatively reliable and solid aftermarket support.
Lexus LC500 is still new and pricey, GS F has some flaws and still heft pricing, RC F is small and heavy for it's size.

[Kinkstaah]

The answer is actually yes, to all of them.

(and probably has been, going back to 90's cars and people who enjoyed 70's cars thinking the same about 90's turbo cars)

If you think about what it costs to build up an old car with oem style reliability  and target performance, you will find that some cars are actually pretty great value. Safety comes with insulation from the road. This is arguably a good thing even if it's not as 'raw'

Its a little easier when you get depreciation going on.

Go have a look at a 2012 86 or a 370Z and see how much they sell for, compared to a stock, unrestored 180SX or R32 if they even exist. The comparisons there are pretty easy to draw, my friend recently got a 318ti notchback, coils, 2.8L conversion from the 328i, awesome car to drive, peppy, fun, all bushes and such fixed, good wheels, and comes out to about the price of a 2nd hand 86 from 2013.

Now lets say you didn't particularily care about 1995 old school BMW things, "Just going out to buy" an 86 is a much simplier, easier, more sensible, better 'value' option if you add things like emotional and physical labor as a cost as opposed to a 'fun experience'.

While cars are still NEW NEW it may be hard to justify 60k for a 2020 Mustang.

But would you pay 27k for a Mustang when prices drop, and a stock R34 GTT is ~25k? One of these is massively better than the other in every category but 'old school raw'.  Cars are improving, and mods (for power) are becoming less relevent given engine power from OEM is getting far far more accessible/usable/not requiring of boosting a great deal for the track, and double so for any amount of road fun that's semi sensible.

[junkie]

I bought my Fiesta as a daily runabout to get to and from work. Turned out to be way better than my S14 in just about every way, even though its wrong wheel drive. There are some significant differences, mostly due to progress over the past 20 years.

1. No lag. Torque from idle just about. Compared to nothing below 2.5k rpm from the s14, even in stock form

2. Body rigidity - zero flex anywhere. Cant say the same for a 90's Nissan

3. Interior quality, the ST isn't noted for its top notch interior, but still miles ahead of any S-Chassis

4. More power, more torque, better economy from smaller capacity

5. Electric steering - sharp, fast, full of feedback

6. General amount of fun and bang for the back, driving the S14 now feels like driving a laggy Maxima

[GTSBoy]

Meh. I have one of the last of the previous shape RAV4s. It is a transport appliance. We also have a recent previous shape Swift. It is also a transport appliance. There is nothing to love about either of them, even with them being arguably the best-in-class.

I'd rather drive my R32 even when it is being bitchy than either of them.

[robbo_rb180]

I'll add to what Greg has said as I was recently looking at new cars and ended up with a 370z to daily. Compared to driving a modified 90s import that I have sunk far too much money into the new car has a lot of great things like cruise control, good economy, steers brilliantly, interior is nicer and goes decent for what it is without any of the hassles but I'll always have the old cars there for the nostalgia/tinkering factor.
Another thing was value for money you get a lot of car for the money these days.
All cars with have pros & cons with each one but comes down to what you want it for.
I have found that having a one nice car (370z) & one practical do it all car (d22 dual cab) is necessary.  I love driving my s chassis' but I don't think I could go pay what people are asking for them these days for what you get.

[GTofuS-T]

Really depends, are you buying a car to end all future car purchases (i.e. expecting it to last) or flipping every 2 to 3 years, and by new do you mean off the lot smells like ass it's so new or 2 to 3 year old ex-warranty?

What we don't truly know is how much engineering has been stripped out of new cars to maintain financial viability (or to add planned obsolescence), and will any of the "new" cars still be comparably reliable to a stockish 25 year old Nissan when they reach the same vintage.

I'm curious to see what the next generation of young tuner enthusiast drivers will be driving (if they even still exist) in 10 years, as nothing from now or up to 10 years ago ( or longer?) is engineered to last, cheaply or reliably. But without external intervention (crash, stupid mods, greenies, etc.) I would assume my R33 will still be kickin' on, yet the demand (assuming it's there) will be too high for it to be a good value proposition like it was for most of us. At which case it's not a comparable discussion.

 

1 hour ago, junkie said:

1. No lag. Torque from idle just about. Compared to nothing below 2.5k rpm from the s14, even in stock form

absolutely same with my mum's i30, not even N, but get over say 70km/h and try to accelerate and there's nothing there, this is where the word compromise comes into play, just like all those "how can i 400hp rb20 no lag" threads can't understand. plus no soul and blah blah blah, I definitely enjoy thrashing it around town though, but wouldn't pay $20k for it compared to the $5k for the R33, however, would i buy the same R33 at $10-12k today? who knows, but probably not.

[Count Grantleyish]

I have a MK6 Golf R for 4 and bit years, although it look souless but it's so darn good to live with everyday to the fact I struggle to try to sell it (either update to newer Golf R or get myself a 4x4). I've used Ze R for Uber, daily driving, sheep shepherding outside Wagga Wagga, carrying stuff, etc. 

I love the fact my Ze R has the following; 

- DSG, quick shift compared to manual, and in auto mode it makes peak hour commute very bearable, although the "throttle lag" could be bit of an issue but you get used to it over time. 

- cup holders, it's so damn handy and in my R I even have bottle opener. 

- decent xenon headlights that self adjust.

- air con and heater works, I took my Skyline to work the other week, it was cold and took me 25 mins to defrost the windscreen when it took Ze R just 5 mins to do that. Also when I turn it to max and it turns into sauna when in the GTR it was lukewarm. Air con in Golf is excellent to the point my nipples managed to get rock hard in 43 degree heat!

- so practical, I know I'm comparing apples to oranges there, but I managed to fit 4x 33x12.5x15 tyres in Golf, also can fit 5 adults, blah blah blah. I once managed to fit 4x 18x10.5 wheels with 285 tyres in the GTR so the Skyline can be practical if you're excellent at tetris. 

- no reliability issues with Ze R in 4 and bit years I've owned, oh and it was out of warranty when I bought it, DSG didn't explode. 

And now I'm more tempted to sell my GTR now... 

Horses for courses really, majority of issues highlighted often come from people with unrealistic expectations of what they want from a car and goes out and buy new car every 5 years so they can "keep up with Joneses"  

[Count Grantleyish]

16 minutes ago, GTofuS-T said:

I'm curious to see what the next generation of young tuner enthusiast drivers will be driving 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Hot Hatches like Focus ST/RS, Golf GTI/R, I30N, Megane RS - actually they're doing it nowadays and Europeans has been doing hot hatches for yonks. 

Or Twin turbo BMW or even Kia Stinger. 

[The Bogan]

Polls are hard.

If by new car you mean stock new sporty car for $40-80 k I would say yes, compared to anything from yore they are worlds ahead.

But, if your budget is lower, than that, then maybe you might be better of with something old, but, what "good" car are people talking about, everything from the 90's that is good will cost a fortune, and the cheap ones, well, I don't drive around in drift pig type cars, I had cheap shit cars when I was a kid.

That's when your lifestyle, the amount of compromise and risk you will accept, and expectations come in to it.

Older cars may have more soul, but they are typically rubbish by todays standards.

And then you go out and throw commonsense into the wind and purchase with your heart.

Stupid cars and stuff.

[junkie]

Other thing I forget to mention, new cars are generally quite well sorted in stock form so you are not buying a modding platform that will need an instant pile of work like you did back in the 90s

Wheels

Tyres

Exhaust

Front Mount

Moar boost

Suspension

Brakes

Audio

Seats

List goes on

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, GTofuS-T said:

What we don't truly know is how much engineering has been stripped out of new cars to maintain financial viability (or to add planned obsolescence), and will any of the "new" cars still be comparably reliable to a stockish 25 year old Nissan when they reach the same vintage.

The answer is heaps is pulled out. Subarus from the 90s were really good. Well engineered, good quality components. By 2010 the rot had started to set in and they had so many common problems. Head gaskets at 130000km. Leaking seals. Shit suspension/body bushes by 30,000. Etc. Bad electronics (coils, ignitors, etc).

Nissans became Renaults and all sounded worse than an SR20 or 4G63 (which are both about as bad as a 4cyl can get).

All BMWs from the last 20 years have time bombs built into the engine and the gearbox and the electronics. Same with Audis. Merc used to be pinnacle engineering and they are now riddled with cheap components and poor engineering choices.

This is not to mention the lack on investment in actually achieving emissions standards and just cheating the tests! I'm look at Ze Chermans here in particular.

[GTofuS-T]

6 hours ago, junkie said:

Other thing I forget to mention, new cars are generally quite well sorted in stock form so you are not buying a modding platform that will need an instant pile of work like you did back in the 90s

Wheels - subjective, wheels are about taste, most OEM alloys these days look like shit

Tyres - consumable

Exhaust - subjective, every new 86, golf, mercs i've seen on the road has aftermarket exhaust that sounds like shit

Front Mount - it still happens

Moar boost - said no one with a turbo ever, it still happens

Suspension - it still happens

Brakes - depends on application

Audio - very valid these days

Seats - subjective still running OEM R33 seats, nothing wrong with them

List goes on

none of these were required on brand new 90's cars at the time either... do you think your Fiesta will not need these in 25 years?

[junkie]

You are kinda missing the point I'm trying to make.

Back in the 90's a 50k brand new fun car would be a 200sx, Prelude, Celica etc and my mod list largely applies to all of them

Now compare 50k today and what fun car you can get - i30n, Focus ST, Megane RS, Golf GTi and you generally dont need to mod them anywhere near as much

Also keep in mind the average wage from the 90s and now so your 50k today is a lot less money that it was 20 years ago

[Trex]

yes, even the lower end of the market  is worth it over a 90's jdm car.

We got a cerato gt because it was sub 30k with dct, paddle shifters, heated and cooled seats, lane assist, great sound system, great brakes, able to drive 4+ hours with no back pain or real uneasiness. It has all the jazz.

It's much better than the modified stagea. Better handling, better response. All around a better car. The one thing the gt lacks is an lsd (or better tyres than the over rated and priced pilot sport 4's).

 

A mate and I have been talking about getting back into a japanese 90's weapons for the last year. But looking at the cost per what you get, then modifications. It's just not worth it.. The way new cars are, they are so far beyond the old race cars of the 90's youd be crazy to consider it..

[Trex]

The one track day that keeps coming to mind is when @TiTAN went out with his fiesta st and was doing better than a lot of highly modified 90's cars... 

That day pretty much cemented for me that newer tech is the way to go. (i type this while building a 74' volvo)

[GTSBoy]

3 hours ago, Trex said:

i type this while building a 74' volvo

And long may such automotive hypocrisy continue. The last thing we should be doing is dropping the old cars because the new cars are simply faster. Why would anyone continue to play with the Historics, a la Goodwood, otherwise?!

I am dismayed with myself for not keeping the wreck of my HG, because whilst it was proper f**ked in the late 80s when I binned it, it was actually quite repairable.

I am dismayed with myself for putting my HQ Monaro into harm's way and letting it be stolen.

I occasionally  kick myself for not fixing my VC Commode when I bought my ALFA, and then selling it for a pittance.

I continually kick myself for offloading the ALFA when I bought the Skyline. I bought the R32 for very good reasons in terms of what it would cost me to make the ALFA perform as well as the already turbod, already 4 pot braked, etc R32.....but I still miss the way the 116 chassis handles, and that car would be worth 5x what I got for it by now.

I simply cannot contemplate paying as much money for a new car that would actually not be a soulless transport appliance. $100k is much better spent elsewhere. So I will never part with the R32 and never stop dailying it, unless there is no option.

[Leroy Peterson]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:26 PM, Kinkstaah said:

Cars are improving, and mods (for power) are becoming less relevent given engine power from OEM is getting far far more accessible/usable/not requiring of boosting a great deal for the track, and double so for any amount of road fun that's semi sensible.

Thats a great point, and something I hadn't thought about. But now you see that most of the sought-after parts are ones that increase driver feel: throttle response kits, transmission/engine tunes and suspension. Looking at some car forums and people queue up to buy kits that enable phone mirroring or apple carplay/android auto. Makes sense.
 

On 7/3/2020 at 1:43 PM, junkie said:

I bought my Fiesta as a daily runabout to get to and from work. Turned out to be way better than my S14 in just about every way, even though its wrong wheel drive.

Preaching to the choir here, being a pulsar man on skyline forum. My mrs has a 1.5L honda jazz, and its actually a fantastic car. I put a pod filter on it and some other goodies.
 

On 7/3/2020 at 3:43 PM, GTofuS-T said:

Really depends, are you buying a car to end all future car purchases (i.e. expecting it to last) or flipping every 2 to 3 years, and by new do you mean off the lot smells like ass it's so new or 2 to 3 year old ex-warranty?

Anytime I try and justify (or talk myself out of) buying a car, I treat it as if I'm going to keep it forever. I've only ever bought 4 cars in my life, I still own 2 of them, and 1 of the sold ones I paid $50 for.
But in terms of 30kms new vs. <30,000kms new, THIS is what I'm unsure about. You dodge a lot of depreciation, but to what extent has the original owner looked after the car? knowing they will sell in a few years. They've barely done enough kms for a handful of services.
 

On 7/3/2020 at 4:25 PM, mlr said:

But, if your budget is lower, than that, then maybe you might be better of with something old, but, what "good" car are people talking about, everything from the 90's that is good will cost a fortune, and the cheap ones, well, I don't drive around in drift pig type cars, I had cheap shit cars when I was a kid.

That's when your lifestyle, the amount of compromise and risk you will accept, and expectations come in to it.

Budget is a weird one. I've tried looking at cars that are manual, there isnt much around. MX5 is relatively cheap, mustang is getting there, Type R's have solid resale. The rest is BMW's at top end of price. Then I read that new manuals are kinda shit, with rev hang and crappy gearing.

Its a slippery slope because if "I can have X car, 3 years old, but I can get Y car 5 years old for only a little more". It's all new to me because I've never ever considered buying a <5 year old car before.
Then if you look at what cars can be imported now from overseas... so many unique and cool options.

I'm rambling a bit, but I have the very comfy cruiser Gloria, and the pulsar, which is about as fast and intense as road reg FWD gets. Having two cars (plus work car plus mrs car) is annoying. The cheapest (short-term) but painful option is to keep both. The wisest decision is to sell both. A compromise would be to get something comfy, safe, more family friendly but still fast/sound nice?

[joshuaho96]

For a practical car it's indisputable, a newer car is better. Modern engines are better in so many different ways you could write a textbook on the subject. Same goes for safety, that floppy chassis is going to end poorly when everyone drives crossovers these days. Maybe Aus/NZ emissions are harder to meet than US standards but modern gasoline engines don't have a lot of trouble meeting emissions, it's only the EU where you have power-robbing GPFs. You can free up some power by running a high flow cat in the downpipe of most turbo engines but that's about it, the rest of the exhaust is basically sized for full flow with minimal restriction. Tire technology has advanced so far since the 90s that an F40 is slower from 0-100 km/h on 90s tires than a modern Mustang GT. Modern transmissions are so much better and more reliable generally as well, just keep up the fluid changes.

With that said there are definitely issues with modern cars, some of which stem from higher safety standards. Others stem from just stupid design choices. The new Audi RS6 Avant now only comes with a choice of 21 or 22 inch wheels. The 21 inch wheels get 35 profile tires. The 22 inch wheels are 30 profile. These kinds of trends are horrendous for ride comfort and pothole resistance but somehow it keeps going on anyways. Infotainment does age like milk but frankly with Carplay/Android Auto you just plug in your phone and ignore all of those issues. The fake engine noises can usually be coded out but yes, it is obnoxious. 

[Trex]

19 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

And long may such automotive hypocrisy continue. The last thing we should be doing is dropping the old cars because the new cars are simply faster. Why would anyone continue to play with the Historics, a la Goodwood, otherwise?

I simply cannot contemplate paying as much money for a new car that would actually not be a soulless transport appliance. $100k is much better spent elsewhere. So I will never part with the R32 and never stop dailying it, unless there is no option.

Hahaha exactly. Some of my fav cars have been utes and older sedans. Everything is mechanical and you're forced to be one with the car.

We don't stop loving and building older cars. But i can't deny how much much technology is making driving easier, faster, safer, and cheaper. I'm sometimes regretful of selling the stagea, but on the other hand I don't miss it at all when driving something that is better in every category while using half the amount of fuel.

 

Sometimes you just can't predict what things are going to be worth or if you're going to miss a car or regret not purchasing that particular one. I've got a pretty long list lol 

[Trex]

@Leroy Peterson You're right about the eco smart race blah modes. These usually just change the shift points and on race mode on most new cars changes the tps signal. so 1/4 throttle is really 1/2. It gives the illusion the car is punchier to drive.. Higher end cars do more, like open the exhaust to make it louder. 

I wouldn't be too worried about gdi, The intake cleaners work fine at removing the light deposits when done every service.