RB26 vs RB28 Vcam Dyno result

[TXSquirrel]

Greddy Profec is a duty cycle based EBC and not pressure based.  Maybe you can look into that instead.

[joshuaho96]

19 hours ago, Deza3000 said:

Ill see if I can!

Not a problem! Glad I could help.

It would be good to know if you've changed the final drive ratios or you're running something other than OEM tire diameter, otherwise it's not too hard to use a gear calculator to do the math and see that your dyno is sweeping from ~1500 RPM to ~7000 RPM, with boost hitting target psi somewhere around 3200 RPM. Really great results, I'm wondering if it even makes sense to go for a larger duration exhaust cam to match the intake cam as HKS recommends if this is what you got out of VCAM step 1 with stock exhaust cam.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Have had engine protection protect the car going bang many times at the track from over heating, lean outs, oil pressure drops.

Would have totaled my new motor at Wakefield Park last month if it wasn't for the Kebabtech limiting RPM, timing and boost when oil pressure dropped on the back straight when the sump drained. I could have kept racing with limited power but decided to stop.

Pulled into the pits, looked at the logs and realised I had 2bar of oil pressure at 7k RPM.

Straight away new there was an oil control issue without needing to guess or make dataless assumptions.

Can't do any of that with a PowerFC.

[Deza3000]

On 7/26/2020 at 11:30 AM, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Have had engine protection protect the car going bang many times at the track from over heating, lean outs, oil pressure drops.

Would have totaled my new motor at Wakefield Park last month if it wasn't for the Kebabtech limiting RPM, timing and boost when oil pressure dropped on the back straight when the sump drained. I could have kept racing with limited power but decided to stop.

Pulled into the pits, looked at the logs and realised I had 2bar of oil pressure at 7k RPM.

Straight away new there was an oil control issue without needing to guess or make dataless assumptions.

Can't do any of that with a PowerFC.

Not denying any of that, i've never done a track day though, so wasn't a priority. The car is literally a weekend donut getter and some spirited driving. Will get one eventually. Looking at Brakes and Motec M150s as the next upgrade - however this was not the point of this thread, it's digressed very hard. 

 

On 7/26/2020 at 11:00 AM, joshuaho96 said:

It would be good to know if you've changed the final drive ratios or you're running something other than OEM tire diameter, otherwise it's not too hard to use a gear calculator to do the math and see that your dyno is sweeping from ~1500 RPM to ~7000 RPM, with boost hitting target psi somewhere around 3200 RPM. Really great results, I'm wondering if it even makes sense to go for a larger duration exhaust cam to match the intake cam as HKS recommends if this is what you got out of VCAM step 1 with stock exhaust cam.

Haha thank you! It's had no changes to final drive, and also they used the OEM wheels for the dyno tuning (i think 255 40 r18 tyre?). Not sure about ramp rate or whatever. I can confirm the car starts building boost super duper early (1900rpmish?) Hard to avoid. I was looking at getting the HKS 256 exhaust cam, just to see if it will make any difference, i feel like it would probably help make power up top. 

[Deza3000]

Just gonna add, while I understand many of you don't agree with the choices I made for my build, the purpose of this thread was purely to help people justify the purchase of a Vcam and 2.8. Thought it might be helpful.

My build is over 2 years old and have clocked over 40,000ks since... I have taken all your criticisms on board, but please keep in mind I've built the car based on what I thought would give it value for the given application and with the budget i had. I bought this GTR when it was worth peanuts, im not wealthy, so couldnt splurge on everything i wanted. I saved and made do with what I had. Yes could have gotten a ECU over the vcam, but at the time, Vcam was cheap and super rare, so i jumped on the opportunity. My engine failure was a result of oil starvation, so yes i dumped 1.5k into a sump and another 1.5k into a pump. 

I have projected ECU upgrades, suspension and brakes into my future modifications, of which ive already marked off suspension. Im just taking things one step at a time, the build isnt over yet! ECU is on the table and will be fitted to my car when the time comes. It all comes down to my personal and financial circumstances.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

@Deza3000 my comments weren't targeted at you, more of a general comment

 

[djvoodoo]

1 hour ago, Deza3000 said:

Just gonna add, while I understand many of you don't agree with the choices I made for my build, the purpose of this thread was purely to help people justify the purchase of a Vcam and 2.8. Thought it might be helpful.

My build is over 2 years old and have clocked over 40,000ks since... I have taken all your criticisms on board, but please keep in mind I've built the car based on what I thought would give it value for the given application and with the budget i had. I bought this GTR when it was worth peanuts, im not wealthy, so couldnt splurge on everything i wanted. I saved and made do with what I had. Yes could have gotten a ECU over the vcam, but at the time, Vcam was cheap and super rare, so i jumped on the opportunity. My engine failure was a result of oil starvation, so yes i dumped 1.5k into a sump and another 1.5k into a pump. 

I have projected ECU upgrades, suspension and brakes into my future modifications, of which ive already marked off suspension. Im just taking things one step at a time, the build isnt over yet! ECU is on the table and will be fitted to my car when the time comes. It all comes down to my personal and financial circumstances.

Yep, sorry i may have had a hand in de-railing. 

[Deza3000]

Haha nahh all good boys. At least i can post another back to back comparison once I've done the ECU with boost control.  ECU seems to be the more popular upgrade so may as well cater for it. 

[JGTC]

Really interesting, thanks for sharing, can totally understand keeping the spend from getting out of control and simply fixing/improving what was damaged or essential.

What did the overhaul set you back if you dont mind me asking, still would have been a heavy cheque id imagine, i'm currently on -9s stock motor and have always thought when the day comes to rebuild.

Did the starvation come from anything specific ie track time or just low oil volume in general? 

Cheers,

Edited July 27, 2020 by JGTC

[Deza3000]

13 hours ago, JGTC said:

Really interesting, thanks for sharing, can totally understand keeping the spend from getting out of control and simply fixing/improving what was damaged or essential.

What did the overhaul set you back if you dont mind me asking, still would have been a heavy cheque id imagine, i'm currently on -9s stock motor and have always thought when the day comes to rebuild.

Did the starvation come from anything specific ie track time or just low oil volume in general? 

Cheers,

Not a problem!

Overhaul including block modifications for oil return etc... extended sump, nitto pump, billet crank, forged rods and pistons + the vcam came close to 24k AUD. I had to also repair the head and a few other items unfortunately  Otherwise it would have been 18k for a fully built and tuned engine. 

The engine died due to split oil pump gear, lost oil pressure and seized the head within a minute. When we inspected the oil pump, there was significant burn marks which indicated there was oil starvation (which i assume may have been from the night before as i was chucking it in hair pins around arthurs seat). The car lost oil pressure on a dyno day the next day 

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

26 minutes ago, Deza3000 said:

The engine died due to split oil pump gear, lost oil pressure and seized the head within a minute. When we inspected the oil pump, there was significant burn marks which indicated there was oil starvation (which i assume may have been from the night before as i was chucking it in hair pins around arthurs seat). The car lost oil pressure on a dyno day the next day 

Not to add salt to the wound, however if you had a better ECU at that point of time and with the appropriate engine protection strategies you could have caught that problem/issue and at least save part of your motor if not all of it.

I see a modern ECU as insurance and also saves eardrums when your wife screams at you for spending another 20k on a motor lol

[Deza3000]

13 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Not to add salt to the wound, however if you had a better ECU at that point of time and with the appropriate engine protection strategies you could have caught that problem/issue and at least save part of your motor if not all of it.

I see a modern ECU as insurance and also saves eardrums when your wife screams at you for spending another 20k on a motor lol

Ohh yep for sure, i actually was about to write that in my response haha. It would have saved me 5 grand for sure. Would have built the motor since the pump would have to come out anyway, wouldnt have had to repair a damaged head. 

[JGTC]

6 hours ago, Deza3000 said:

 

 

Thanks a heap that takes so much mystery out of it, much appreciated.  Definitely not a usage case you would assume could cause starvation.

[Unzipped Composites]

On 27/07/2020 at 11:10 AM, Deza3000 said:

Not denying any of that, i've never done a track day though, so wasn't a priority. The car is literally a weekend donut getter and some spirited driving. Will get one eventually. Looking at Brakes and Motec M150s as the next upgrade - however this was not the point of this thread, it's digressed very hard. 

 

Just to contribute to the derailing - if the car is not a track car why do you want a Motec M150? Don't get me wrong, I think Motecs are LEAGUES ahead of anything else on the market, BUT - all for reasons that would not get used on a street car. Especially the M150's, their power really comes from the ability to do anything you want, rather than being dumbed down to make it more user friendly. When you need the ability to use GPS position based boost/traction control, or traction control based on individual tyre temperature and steering angle, or crazy data analysis - that is where an M150 is the best ECU on the market.

 

If you just want a modern ECU with finer resolution and better engine protection, Haltech (wouldnt be my choice, but they are perfectly capable) or a Link will do the exact same job as the Motec at virtually half the price. Then put the remainder towards a Motec C1212 with the Display Creator software - that is a proper game changer that you would get significant enjoyment/benefit from. 

 

On topic - looks like a fun setup, especially once you get the supporting mods to really make it come alive. Totally understand the decision to draw a line on how much you spend and how much needs to be done NOW. I think on forums we get used to people dropping 50-60k in one succinct post and forget the reality that for most of us building a car the way you really want can spread over decades. 34R with a 2.8L VCam RB? Stuff of dreams, so enjoy it!

[Deza3000]

1 hour ago, Unzipped Composites said:

 

Just to contribute to the derailing - if the car is not a track car why do you want a Motec M150? Don't get me wrong, I think Motecs are LEAGUES ahead of anything else on the market, BUT - all for reasons that would not get used on a street car. Especially the M150's, their power really comes from the ability to do anything you want, rather than being dumbed down to make it more user friendly. When you need the ability to use GPS position based boost/traction control, or traction control based on individual tyre temperature and steering angle, or crazy data analysis - that is where an M150 is the best ECU on the market.

 

If you just want a modern ECU with finer resolution and better engine protection, Haltech (wouldnt be my choice, but they are perfectly capable) or a Link will do the exact same job as the Motec at virtually half the price. Then put the remainder towards a Motec C1212 with the Display Creator software - that is a proper game changer that you would get significant enjoyment/benefit from. 

 

On topic - looks like a fun setup, especially once you get the supporting mods to really make it come alive. Totally understand the decision to draw a line on how much you spend and how much needs to be done NOW. I think on forums we get used to people dropping 50-60k in one succinct post and forget the reality that for most of us building a car the way you really want can spread over decades. 34R with a 2.8L VCam RB? Stuff of dreams, so enjoy it!

Thanks man!! 

Yea I was recommended Motec from my tuner and spoke to a few customers from CRD who were also recommended Motec over Haltech which is why i was opting for that. Though now that i think about it, their builds are more track oriented (samsonas Gearbox, 3.2l drag builds etc...). But i agree, Haltech has come a longgg way, some of the forums are a little outdated, the features seem almost identical and has dominated the US market. Ill have to do some research, not keen on spending 5k+ if i dont have too. 

Would you recommend Link over Haltech? Ill have a look into that as well, some of the Evo guys have recommended this ECU to me. Have also looked into AEM, but they dont seem to have all the safety that Haltech/motec seemed to offer

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Deza3000

[Murray_Calavera]

The Link vs Haltech is a tough choice, I liken it a bit to Android (Link) vs Apple (Haltech). The Link gives you a bit more value but the Haltech stuff sure is pretty and very user friendly. 

Will you be installing sensors and tuning the thing yourself? If so, the main benefit for me is being able to drive to Haltech and work on the car with their tech's in person. Every time I visit Haltech I'm amazed at their customer support. It almost feels a bit naughty in a way, kinda like if I bought a turbo then turned around and asked the supplier to help me install it haha. I really can't overstate how amazing their customer support is. 

If your just giving the car to a workshop/tuner, I suppose whatever they prefer working on or can get a better deal on may sway your opinion. 

[acsplit]

Good to see a thread like this, plenty of cars in Vic run VCam but a lot have not done much back to back.

Real data and comparison, take the ecu talk to another thread!

 

 

 

[Unzipped Composites]

Yeh the Android (Link) vs Apple (Haltech) is a good comparison. Haltechs are a bit 'dumbed down' and quite restrictive, they let you do some very specific things and outside of that you just can't do it, while the Link can let you be a bit more creative about the way you set something up. Thats a bit harsh on Haltech though, they are very capable. At the end of the day, if you don't have a specific job in mind that you need the ECU to do then they are both going to do the same job because your tuner will likely set them up in the same way. 

 

Personally, I like Link a lot. I have a Thunder in my car, and I had a G4 plug-in before that. They are very good ECU's and I would always get another one before I got a Haltech. That's personal choice. I do know Haltech have superb customer support (providing you are using their products in an application they are familiar with, otherwise they aren't too keen to know about it), as do Link. They're both top ECU's and you can't go wrong either way.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

You could get more gains if the V-Cam was controlled via the ECU and not the guess box it comes with.

I prefer Haltech if I was tuning, however Link has more features out of the box such as canbus keypad integration and a few more motorsport features.

I do find the Link software a bit haram, the GUI doesn't scale properly and when you move widgets around it's not very fluid. But as the car owner (person running the ECU) there wouldn't be an issue as they would never log into it.

[Deza3000]

@Murray_Calavera Nah the car will be tuned by my workshop. They can tune all ECUs but prefer Motec and possibly Link over Haltech.

@Unzipped Composites Yep so safety features aside, I wanted launch control, boost control via ECU, Variable Cam timing control (so bugger off the HKS Valcon controller), Flex sensor so i can do both 98 and e85, possible flat foot shifting (Not sure if this requires Drive by wire or if it simply cuts ignition). If Link or Haltech can do all that then great, but from what i can see it was only Motec could control the VCAM