My 550whp v-spec R33gtr Needs help

[Old man 32 GTR]

1 hour ago, BK said:

There is no such thing as an RB26 N1 crank, contrary to what people are advertising. 12200-05U03 is just the latest R34 long nose crank that superceded previous part numbers, used in all RB26. Kudos has in stock for about the same price through Amayama.

The N1 crank in R33 was the same previous part in all 33 RB26s, 12200-05U02.

Ok, this makes sense, in the last month or so, I’ve seen people and shops advertising cranks as N1, and as far as I was aware, there were 2 versions of the rb26 crank, the long nose and short nose, I thought maybe it was something I haven’t heard of before, the description threw me. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Old man 32 GTR
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[BK]

Yeah, they're full of shit saying N1. 12200-05U02 was still a long nose crank too, just the obsolete part number now.

[Amin206]

On 19/09/2020 at 6:15 PM, Unzipped Composites said:

Can't help for a crank source in Canada, hopefully someone else here can.

 

Oil cooler, get a Setrab or Mocal 19 or 25 row with minimum AN10 fittings. One of those coolers plus lines and fittings should come in under $600 for sure.

 

N1 pump has higher flow over standard pump, so I would still get an N1 pump. If you want to reuse your gears, it also depends what pump your gears are from, N1 and standard are different size gears. Personally, I would get a new N1 pump, and if your gears don't suit it then new gears as well.

Does that after market setup help for street use? I saw lots of +600hp setup still using factory oil coolers 

how to tell if it’s n1pump or standard?

On 20/09/2020 at 2:09 AM, BK said:

There is no such thing as an RB26 N1 crank, contrary to what people are advertising. 12200-05U03 is just the latest R34 long nose crank that superceded previous part numbers, used in all RB26. Kudos has in stock for about the same price through Amayama.

The N1 crank in R33 was the same previous part in all 33 RB26s, 12200-05U02.

I realized some of them  also sell these new blocks as n1 block for very cheap price but they’re actually standard blocks

[BK]

1 hour ago, Amin206 said:

I realized some of them  also sell these new blocks as n1 block for very cheap price but they’re actually standard blocks

That's even worse as the 24U N1 block is a completely different part. As far as the N1 oil pump, the backing plate is different to the standard one.

[Unzipped Composites]

2 hours ago, Amin206 said:

Does that after market setup help for street use? I saw lots of +600hp setup still using factory oil coolers 

 

 

Yes of course, it is better. The OEM cooler isn't actually a cooler, it is a heat exchanger. More for warming the oil up quickly than keeping it cool.

 

For street use, I would install a thermostat with the oil cooler as well,  to help get the oil up to temp. Especially in Canada. 

[Amin206]

So I checked the oil pump and mine is a standard one. 
This project is getting so expensive and I’m running out of budget... 

how about getting the standard oil pump again and use my upgraded gears cause if i get n1 pump I have to get new gears which is $600-700 

so standard pump + upgraded gears vs n1 pump without upgraded gears?

[Unzipped Composites]

35 minutes ago, Amin206 said:

So I checked the oil pump and mine is a standard one. 
This project is getting so expensive and I’m running out of budget... 

how about getting the standard oil pump again and use my upgraded gears cause if i get n1 pump I have to get new gears which is $600-700 

so standard pump + upgraded gears vs n1 pump without upgraded gears?

 

Kind of your call to make. If you only intend to use it as a street car, it may be ok. But don't forget that the oil pump is the achilles heel of the RB. Is that really where you want to be drawing the line for the budget? 

 

There is also no real need for spline drive gears, nothing wrong with billet flat drive gears unless you plan to live on the limiter. 

[BK]

As above is completely correct. The engine is out, now is the time to address the oil issues. I'd be hesitant to reuse you existing pump, but I see where you're going. Buying a new N1 pump and then new billet gears for it is approaching the cost of just buying a new Nitto oil pump.

[UWISSH!]

6 hours ago, Amin206 said:
This project is getting so expensive and I’m running out of budget... 

Welcome to the tuff and unforgiving world of owning a gtr.

shit gets expensive real quick but the best advice is to do it once and do it right.

it might mean saving longer and having it off the road longer but at the end you have peace of mind it’s less likely to let you down in the future compared to cutting corners

[Unzipped Composites]

5 hours ago, BK said:

As above is completely correct. The engine is out, now is the time to address the oil issues. I'd be hesitant to reuse you existing pump, but I see where you're going. Buying a new N1 pump and then new billet gears for it is approaching the cost of just buying a new Nitto oil pump.

 

BUT - with a Nitto pump you NEED an extended sump. With an N1 pump/billet gears in a street car, you could get away with an OEM sump. 

 

Not sure if the OP already has an extended sump from the first couple of builds, then a Nitto pump is maybe a cost effective option. But if he needs the extended sump then thats another $600-$1000 on top of the price of the Nitto pump.

[BK]

5 hours ago, Unzipped Composites said:

 

BUT - with a Nitto pump you NEED an extended sump. With an N1 pump/billet gears in a street car, you could get away with an OEM sump. 

 

Not sure if the OP already has an extended sump from the first couple of builds, then a Nitto pump is maybe a cost effective option. But if he needs the extended sump then thats another $600-$1000 on top of the price of the Nitto pump.

More like $1100 - $2000 for a good extended sump. On my blue 32 it has a Nitto pump and a Lewis engines 8+ litre sump as it's a big dollar Nitto 2.8. But I'm not sold that it's an absolute 100% deal breaker to run a Nitto pump without a big sump. Flow rate major increases are really only up in the high revs, 7000+. They mention long nose crank or crank collar as definite must, but not absolutely, MUST run a bigger sump. Increases are as below. What is not mentioned is that the flow rates quoted are at the dual spring higher pressure, I guess because the pump flows the same at a given rpm, and the relief valve will only bypass very high in the rpm if set to 120psi. It is possible to drop the pressure to the engine bearing and head supply though running one spring, which will infact decrease the flow rate at the high rpm range when the flow output really becomes substantially more with the higher 120psi relief valve setting. 75psi will definitely make the flow lower to the bearings at the mid to higher rpm range as the valve will bypass earlier, returning excess oil directly to the sump. How much lower the flow at the bearings will be I'm not exactly sure, as it's definitely not a linear ratio and I'm not a fluid dynamics engineer. @GTSBoy care to have a crack at the flow differential calc ?

Just to add to info below Tomei pumps are 56L/min at 6000rpm for comparison sake. Factory is still 46L/min at 6000rpm, indicating factory relief valve is already open providing no more increased flow above 6000rpm.

 

FLOW RATES (LITRES / MIN)
ENGINE RPM	FACTORY PUMP	NITTO HIGH VOLUME PUMP
750	4.6	6.5
2200	15.3	20.2
7000	46.5	64.8
PRESSURE RELIEF VALUE (RELEASE PRESSURE)
Dual Springs		120 psi *
Outer Spring Only		75 psi *
* Denotes Approximate Maximum Oil Pressure
NITTO OIL PUMP GEAR VS FACTORY GEAR DIMENSIONS
DIMENSION		FACTORY	NITTO	DIFFERENCE
Outer Gear Diameter		76.85MM	81.50MM	6% LARGER
Outer Gear Width		11.00MM	14.35MM	23% LARGER
Tooth To Outer Wall Width		2.55MM	4.85MM	47% LARGER

On the second 32 were doing now we've built engine already with a stock sump and Nitto oil pump. We're confident it'll be ok as a mainly street and sometimes street drag car with the additional stuff fitted to optimise the stock sump volume restriction:

Head 1.1mm oil supply restrictor in block (stock is 2.0mm), Tomei sump baffle at oil pickup, modified enlarged sump oil return holes, Franklin engineering AN10 rear head drain/breather to sump, twin AN10 rocker cover breathers to catch can with separate AN10 sump return and an HKS 13 row oil cooler with 70deg thermostat filter relocation.

This will be fine, although the cooler and line setup also does add nearly an extra litre to the oil volume for a bit of an increase in capacity, restrictor tries to reduce as much oil being pumped out of sump to head and then the rest is really to facilitate getting the oil back to the sump faster - so it's not exactly a "stock" sump setup I guess.

Look at the end of the day if you can go a bigger sump it's always better, even with the lower flowing standard or N1 pumps. Definitely no argument there. If you can go bigger, do it.

[GTSBoy]

120 psi increased from 75 psi should see about 25% more flow through the same restriction (ie, the same engine).

So, if the 64.8 l/min flow rate is with 2 springs, then one spring should flow about 52. If the 64.8 l/min flow rate is with 1 spring then 2 springs will give f**king lots.

[BK]

43 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

120 psi increased from 75 psi should see about 25% more flow through the same restriction (ie, the same engine).

So, if the 64.8 l/min flow rate is with 2 springs, then one spring should flow about 52. If the 64.8 l/min flow rate is with 1 spring then 2 springs will give f**king lots.

The 64.8 l/min at 7000rpm is definitely at 120psi (2 springs - checked with CRD when I did mine and I have 2 springs fitted). A stock pump looks like it taps out at 46.5 l/min at 67psi on 6000rpm from the service manual. So with the 75 psi (1 spring) at 52 l/min it is lower than a Tomei pump (56 l/min) and only a slight increase in flow and pressure over a standard pump, just heaps stronger. I guess that's why they give you that option to go lower.

[Amin206]

On 21/09/2020 at 8:50 PM, Unzipped Composites said:

 

Kind of your call to make. If you only intend to use it as a street car, it may be ok. But don't forget that the oil pump is the achilles heel of the RB. Is that really where you want to be drawing the line for the budget? 

 

There is also no real need for spline drive gears, nothing wrong with billet flat drive gears unless you plan to live on the limiter. 

If the Upgraded gears don’t have that much of benefit then I’ll go with new n1 pump without upgraded gears just for street use. 

[Unzipped Composites]

41 minutes ago, Amin206 said:

If the Upgraded gears don’t have that much of benefit then I’ll go with new n1 pump without upgraded gears just for street use. 

 

No no, don't misunderstand me! You definitely want billet gears, 100%. But they don't need to be the spline drive type gears that came out of your pump. You can get the direct OEM flat drive style gears for a good bit cheaper than the spline drive style, and for street use they will serve you just as well.

 

For example. You can get the flat drive billet gears from Platinum Racing Products for $470:

 

https://platinumracingproducts.com/collections/rb-accessories/products/prp-billet-oil-pump-gears-nissan-rb20-rb25-rb26-rb30-oil-pump

 

Or you can get their spline drive billet gears for $770:

 

https://platinumracingproducts.com/products/prp-spline-drive-kit?_pos=1&_sid=529d7da06&_ss=r&variant=36097408893096

 

If you're feeling super cashed up, you can even get the Supertec spline drive kit for $1200:

 

https://platinumracingproducts.com/products/supertec-racing-oem-oil-pump-spline-drive-kit-rb25-rb26-rb30?_pos=2&_sid=529d7da06&_ss=r

 

 

 

If it were me, I would get a new N1 pump, and go the OEM flat drive style billet gears, and save 300+ bucks over the spline drive version. But I would NOT run the OEM sintered metal gears that come with the N1 pump.

[BK]

Yes definitely run at least billet gears, whether that's a gearset or a Nitto pump, whatever. The standard oil pump actually runs bigger gears than an N1 too FYI, and are preferred by some engine builders because of their housings.

Don't forget though standard or N1, they still have the shitty cast backing plate which will still flex even with billet gears. Hence why a Nitto pump with its billet gears and billet backing plate make them much better than just a gearset, and are worth every cent.

[Unzipped Composites]

7 hours ago, BK said:

Yes definitely run at least billet gears, whether that's a gearset it a Nitto pump whatever. The standard oil pump actually runs bigger gears than an N1 too FYI, and are preferred by some engine builders because of their housings.

Don't forget though standard or N1, they still have the shitty cast backing plate which will still flex even with billet gears. Hence why a Nitto pump with its billet gears and billet backing plate make them much better than just a gearset, and are worth every cent.

Only $230 for a Supertec billet backing plate for the N1 pump. That's the route I've gone down with my build, billet gears and backing plate and I've got a Neo so N1 pump from factory. Obviously if you're buying a new pump, then you're getting pretty close to the cost of a Nitto, so its a toss up. 

[Amin206]

Well thanks to you guys I’m learning more about this expensive engine... 

Some people in this forum mentioned these spline gears need accurate oil pump adjustment after installation and without adjustment risk of breaking the gears are very high so as I’m looking for no trouble I think I’ll go with billet gears on factory collar. Anyone know if they need adjustment as well? Or just put the gears in there and bolt it back on?

also still not sure n1 or standard pump? If the standard has bigger gears then why pay more for n1? Is it proved that n1 has better oil flow?

 

[GTSBoy]

You should always make sure that the oil pump and the crank are as concentric as possible, even with flat drive pumps.

[BK]

1 hour ago, Amin206 said:

why pay more for n1? Is it proved that n1 has better oil flow?

Exactly. I see no need to run an N1 pump over a stock 33/34 GTR pump. I haven't seen concrete evidence of N1 flow / pressure specs. Best info I could dig up was 47 l/min at 6000rpm, 75psi, but that is still hearsay. The main reason for getting an N1 pump back in the day was they did have a harder gearset than stock (someone on here independently tested it), but if you're going to put billet gears in what the point ? I know @Sydneykid back in the day used to advise to use the stocker over an N1 and Darren from Lewis engines, who builds some pretty tuff and reliable gear, advises of using the stock housing with gears over an N1 pump. I've only used one once 11+ years ago and wouldn't bother again with them against a stock housing if gearsets are being replaced. I have no idea why people even bother with N1 oil pumps when everyone knows basically nothing about them.