HKS Advanced Heritage RB26 Concept

[joshuaho96]

3 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

I work in industrial combustion. The challenges there are very very different to recipro-internal combustion, but there are a wide selection of similarities.

I have to keep telling my upper management, "If wishes were lollies there's be candy shops on every street corner". I have one particular member of upper management who seems to outright believe that just because he wants something to be true, then it must be achievable. You cannot point to the existence of the insulation tiles on the space shuttle and then tell me that it must be possible to insulate an umbilical carrying power, control signals and maybe even fuel while it passes through the 1800°C part of the flame, without giving me at least a suitably sized slice of NASA's budget to achieve it.

And so it is also with any technical development. There are constraints, whether they be physical (ie, available space, material properties, whatever), or physics (ie, kinetics, turbulence, momentum, emergent phenomena, etc), or budget, or other resources that make for an N-dimensional array of compromises to pick from. Some compromises might mean "We can build it, but it won't do anything useful". Others might be "We can build it, but it will cost the earth, moon and half the output of the human race for the next 10000 years to make it happen". And then there's the always wonderful "You need Start Trek level technology to be able to identify specific minerals under the surface at a distance of 1000km" (and yes, I've had to deal with exactly that sort of thing in our other business, which does mineral analysis).

Which is why I poo poo the prospect of successful TJI as a retrofit on RB26 or any similar vintage engine. There might be ways to make it happen, to whatever the limits that it can be realised are. And of course those limits are obviously driven by the fact that it has to be passive TJI to be even close to being described as a "retrofit", and the passive version only yields a tiny fraction of the full potential of the concept. And even the best possibility with passive requires things done (in the way of EGR, etc) that further muddy the possibility of being able to describe it as a "retrofit".

And remember, you're all hoping to be able to do this TJI retrofit with whatever arbitrary combination of turbo and injectors and management and cams and manifolds and pipework and engine capacity and compression and whatever else could possibly be different between enthusiast modified engines some 30 years after they got shipped out of the somewhat low tech assembly line that they were built on. Whereas, any work that the developers of TJI have reported generally lists an extremely long list of extremely tight constraints that they put on it while they fiddled around for thousands of hours in the lab environment to even get it to work.

In my world the equivalent is MILD combustion. This is a pot-of-gold-at-the-end-of-the-rainbow situation where you're firing fuel and oxidant into a chamber (not an engine combustion chamber, a furnace combustion chamber) with certain turbulence properties so that there is massive recirculation of the spent combustion products whizzing around in there and diluting the combustion reaction zone so that it moderates the peak temperatures and minimises NOx. This is a reasonably difficult condition to successfully create in the lab. And the lolly shop on the corner managers want to be able to create MILD combustion in practical combustion chambers with real industrial processes going on inside them (like, calcination, sintering, clinkering, roasting, of lime or analogues, iron ore pellets, raw minerals, acidified minerals, etc). Im-bloody-possible. Never going to happen in the real world. If you manage to get a MILD condition to even be achievable, you'd probably only be able to achieve it for 10 minutes on the 3rd Tuesday after the next cometary close approach. But no-one wants to hear it because they all want their lolly shops.

If you have to put a hundred grand's worth of stuff into an RB engine/bay to be able to achieve TJI, surely it has to be better to just use a better engine? One that's actually designed to do what you need. It is at this point that the existence of people like Herman who are willing to develop castings becomes useful. In the modern world, the "democratisation of production", to coin some sort of phrase, driven by the ability to do decent design work in CAD and get complex stuff 3D printed for dev, for mould/blank production or even for final parts if you're willing to trust metal printers (which I am actually unlikely to put a lot of trust in for parts exposed to combustion and process conditions in my work) , starts to permit people to put some effort into making a head that might allow an RB to successfully work. It could have camless free-valve type stuff to permit the EGR to be internal. Or it might include necessary pathways for moving exhaust gas to the other side of the head to allow an EGR cooler to be placed on the better side under the intake. And it might have more room for a proper TJI injector/chamber. And it might have better port shapes/heights/chamber shape. And it might even have space for a tiny auxiliary spark plug if required, and so on.

But you'd need to expect to be able to sell it to nearly every surviving RB engine to be able to recoup your costs. Or sell it for >$100k per installation, and....you can guess the likelihood of either of those coming off.

I have seen a "solution" to the problems I described which is to just reduce the prechamber volume. Of course if you take it to the logical conclusion you've just accomplished nothing at that point and you're back to a normal spark plug. Maserati has accomplished passive TJI with the Nettuno V6 engine so it's not impossible to make it work in the real world, it's just more annoying than the marketing literature implies.

I agree it seems like HKS was really stretching with that idea, if they do figure it out I expect it'll be close to 2030 by the point you can actually buy something and it will be laughably expensive. They already want well north of 50k USD for a fairly basic 2.8L long block and the octopus intake they engineered for the stock twins was 15k USD so I can't imagine the asking price to be south of 80-100k USD for this hypothetical complete Advanced Heritage engine.

[DanGreen006]

At the end of the day HKS has retrofitted TJI to a std 05u head without the need for special combustion circulation turbulence properties or chambers that require a new head or a "special head hence not a retrofit" on appearance

dude take the L and move i say - its a good time to be a fan wouldnt you agree?

I think this technology will proliferate into the near future and it wont require a huge learning curve for the tuners esp if its a std 05u head -Mate I'll laugh if this is tuned on a poo poo F-con V 

You're saying we're all hoping we can retrofit this without arbitrary considerations to how it left the low tech production line 30yrs ago

No we're just saying HKS fitted TJI on a std 05u head got 450Kw and 5L/100kms - your saying impossible for a multitude of reasons which make no sense to which i addressed in my very first post

Look when E85 came out all the old timers said its gunk it'll ruin your lines, messes ur AFRs, fuel system, ruins your tune -Go ask the boys on alcohol blah blah

Yes but flex fuel systems, ECUs, E85 compatible stainless injectors/lines and massively increased fuel systems without x4 noisy 044s and sensors and tuning knowledge all came to bear very swiftly

In the end it was just a learning curve we now take for granted - this could be the same thing in 5-10 yrs time.

If you had told Nissans engineers when they were designing the head in 86-87

"with pre chamber you'll get 450Kw and 5L/100kms from a CR 8.6 on 100RON on a 77.7mm stroke with a 87mm piston and laid out the valvetrain parts and turbos"

they may not have believed you

Uwe Ostmann owner of Xtreme Di and Bosch/Audi LMP genius https://xtreme-di.com/who-we-are/ talks about how old cars need an update he spearheaded GMs race team when they went GDI in the C7 LT1  he'd be a great person to ask about the topic, if not the best person to talk about it, he tuned a 805hp 427 LT1 for a Targa Tassie Ultima https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VovV5z2QM&t=979s&ab_channel=Rob105
Need to get him and Herman chatting...they're both mad petrol heads (with mad knowledge) 

Besides its probably just an NGK or Denso item?? for those jap engineers working at NGK/Denso TJI is prob like the switch from sata to solid state HDDs and isnt such an insurmountable task you might imagine it to be... esp if they've just plopped it into a std 05u head

All HKS have done is build the bottom end and the valve train and added pre chamber - how is that different or unaffordable for Australians? Yes they spent 100k doesnt mean we have to and of course Jiangshu and HKS are going to charge differently for products

All im saying is give it time,

are HKS and RB tuning a rip off in general?

yes agreed its getting that way you're preaching to the choir

will pre chamber be sold seperately? who knows hope so, lets wait

will you need to spend 100k to install pre chamber- doubt it

In the late 90s a Trust Greddy RB stroker was 10% of a house across the road from the Austin Hospital in Heidelberg.  That same house the guy sold the front yard (but kept the house) for $850k to a Dr that put a Dental clinic there

The HKS heritage motor all done with airbox will prob be 150k - 10% of a house today in the same area? so it's relative in some way, i was astounded then as i am today of anyone who buys them but I knew 3.
2 personally in Melbourne and the owner of Willal had one in a 33 iirc  

- so ppl do buy them but its utter madness to me personally 

imho more so today given its 115-150k with a 2-3m bore std 24u 

Even going the supposedly cheaper Matooks route for a 3.2 and auto will set you back over 80 iirc
so everyone knows what they're up for, it really depends what you want to get out of the car more than anything.

No one really gives a shit unless its 1000hp anyway and that never going to be cheap. Cheap Fast reliable pick 2 as they say -
700hp RB is just boring, yeah im a snob

On the topic of Reinforced Carbon Carbon RCC on the NASA space shuttle, doesnt ATS Japan offer that for eye watering prices on clutches?
1-plate 1000ps 7k
2-plate 2000ps for10k
3-plate 3000ps for 15k
and a quad plate 4000ps for nearly $18,000, yes its outrageously expensive and why tf would anyone......
 - people do, simple as

I would if i could and u would too if u won the $200m three weeks ago....

the single is supposed to be as light AF and you can pound the sh1t out of them, cant remember the wear rates but ATS are supplying this material to F1 teams 

Price is all relative - you'd faint if you saw what Pankl charge Ferrari and Porsche GT for crankshafts

And you mention

"if you're willing to trust metal printers (which I am actually unlikely to put a lot of trust in for parts exposed to combustion"

On the contrary, Mahle are 3d printing pistons which they tested in the 991 GT2RS for 8 days flat! The internal channels provide superior cooling etc 3d printing metal is much stronger and heat resistant to forgings as your plasma welding the metal at the microscopic lvl / structure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztWsivHGL54&ab_channel=MAHLE

Laser additive layer manufacturing IS the future for the internal combustion engines, the S58 in the m4 has the worlds first head printed entirely from metal and everyones running 8s on shitty prep street doing sub 2.2s 0-100kph with nittos in a 1850kgs car!

So it can def handle the combustion pressure in a 1400hp head let alone a piston running WOT for 6.5days then another couple days at various engine loads in a 730hp car

Here's Dr Stefan Ellrot from VW showcasing a push rod thats 100g is 3d printed out of Ti-6Al-4V in a 0.5mm honeycomb structure with generative design with a breaking force of 3700kgs

https://youtu.be/HRhukQfxbDc?t=188

Try forging that!!

Let alone make a driveshaft that weighs 2800 grams and is designed to launch over 100 times without a single issue a 1.36Mw's 1900Nm AWD car with 360 wide slicks up front and 410s out back weighing 1.3 Tn

The game is moving on

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25 by DanGreen006

[DanGreen006]

Also the $24k airbox isnt even for the RB with TJI so expect more price gouging again.

I dont think they'll sell any in Aus - i could be wrong -maybe to a couple of weebs down at V-Spec performance but thats it.

A YT called TJ Hunt spent x3 new G80 M3s to have a M3 with a genuine M Motorsport GT3 bodykit

Thats a $700,000 exercise in Aus - i think he's already popped a HKS crate motor so he is the perfect  type of candidate for these insanely price/performance HKS builds

And in relation to that Mahle 3d printed piston in the GT2RS that was 3.5yrs ago, maybe this HKS item is superior in technology to something you thought impossible 3.5yrs ago?

In 2018 Mahle we're making a 80mm piston for Ferrari that was 19:1 CR, under 55 psi of boost with a 30:1 AFR making over 800hp, today god knows buts its well north of 850hp despite a 5% reduction in fuel flow with a maximum allowance of 3 engines per entire season. So it seems these things are reliable. When Audi cracked GDI with their FSI and Tdi it went into everything 

In the v10 era Ferrari brought a minimum of 3 engines per car per weekend

This technology is moving very fast, who knows whats around the corner
 

Edited February 25 by DanGreen006

[GTSBoy]

7 hours ago, DanGreen006 said:

And you mention

"if you're willing to trust metal printers (which I am actually unlikely to put a lot of trust in for parts exposed to combustion"

On the contrary, Mahle are 3d printing pistons which they tested in the 991 GT2RS for 8 days flat!

Yeah, I meant industrial combustion, not internal combustion. My business will still be moving forward in 20 years. Internal combustion will be nearly dead.

I make the front ends of my equipment from materials like 253MA, 310, 314, various Inconels and Incolloys. And on top of those we use really tricky superalloy coatings. And we still end up having to rebuild burners every 9 months in many industrial processes, because shit is ugly in clinker kilns and acid roast kilns and the like.

I have had burner tip components made using 3D printing. It is hugely expensive for very little to no gain and you cannot print in most of the materials we want to use. There is only a very limited range of high temperature high nickel alloys available, and you can't just use inconel in many of our applications because it doesn't like running at ~800°C in the presence of sulphur, and guess what much of our stuff has to do.

[DanGreen006]

5 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Yeah, I meant industrial combustion, not internal combustion. My business will still be moving forward in 20 years. Internal combustion will be nearly dead.

I make the front ends of my equipment from materials like 253MA, 310, 314, various Inconels and Incolloys. And on top of those we use really tricky superalloy coatings. And we still end up having to rebuild burners every 9 months in many industrial processes, because shit is ugly in clinker kilns and acid roast kilns and the like.

I have had burner tip components made using 3D printing. It is hugely expensive for very little to no gain and you cannot print in most of the materials we want to use. There is only a very limited range of high temperature high nickel alloys available, and you can't just use inconel in many of our applications because it doesn't like running at ~800°C in the presence of sulphur, and guess what much of our stuff has to do.

Interesting, i thought inconel had superior strength properties when subjected to extreme heat. My mates newphew says Monash got a million dollar EOS printer thats printing in Ti and Inconel and SS etc Apparently the kids are trying to figure out how to steal and or buy powder to make their own things after hours. 

Apparently one of the cooler things theyve done this side of the world is making some really efficient w2A heat exchangers in 3d, apparently these things are almost twice as efficient as conventional ones. Cant remember the price per kilo for the metals but it aint cheap and its rather slow to make stuff but i thought cool nonetheless.

The future of ICE? I think that will depend heavily on bio-fuels and or how EVs are going.
California wont allow Chinese or Korean EVs one of the two cant remember - are not allowed to be parked in underground carparks -what a PITA

[GTSBoy]

WRT EVs - yes, all that is required is a better battery technology than lithium for them to be more acceptable. You need circa double the capacity, although more would be better. You need circa double the number charge cycles, although more would be better. And you need them not to be so bloody flammable. And they probably need to be recyclable in a reasonable fashion, which all lithium based batteries do not achieve right now.

All of these things are possible. It might be hard to get all of them at the same time. But if you could get even just the non-flammable and recycling parts, you could go forward.

 

As to powders for 3D printing. Easily available. If they have the printer, they know where the consumables are bought. Not cheap by any measure though, even via Alibaba, and the wastage can be a bit frightening for poor student.

 

Inconel, like all "stainless" materials, has more corrosion failure modes than even mild steel. People don't seem to take notice of this fact. Steel pretty much just rusts, with a few variations on the theme. But simple stainlesses like 304 can do wierd arse shit like stress corrosion cracking and pinhole corrosion, where if you subject them to cycling stresses (like in a pressure vessel that doesn't operate at constant pressure) and a chloride environment, the chloride ion can invade the material at the grain boundaries, suck the chromium atoms out of the grains and precipitate a chromium chloride ceramic material out in the grain boundaries. This leave the stainless steel seriously chrome depleted in the bulk and it just rusts away. And then it tends to go bang. There are many other shitty things that can happen to 300 series stainlesses, and they all have their unique twists on them.

Inconel in particular is only "strong" at elevated temperatures under certain conditions. Granted, these are fairly broad, and the scaling temperature of 600 series inconels is up around 1100°C or so. It retains a lot of strength up at those temperatures. But strength isn't everything. If you hold inconel at ~800°C in an atmosphere that contains sulphur or many sulphur containing species, then you get something that is called hot corrosion. The S attacks the oxide layer on the inconel and it just evaporates away. The new bare parent material forms a new oxide layer (if there is oxygen around to make it) and then that just jumps off the material under S attack. Rinse and repeat. The material loss rate can be truly frightening. I've had 25mm thick burner faceplates go away in weeks. These things could last forever under better circumstances, but they only last weeks when the conditions are wrong.

All these materials have different responses to being operated at different temperatures in oxidising conditions compared to what they do in carburising condition. You really have to know your stuff before choosing a material for an application. If you don't, you soon learn.

I agree that 3D printing in metals offers some massive advantages, particularly for the things you mention. Heat exchangers in particular can be done in ways that are otherwise unmanufacturable and yield terrific performance. The major problem associated with such manufacturing techniques for these sorts of things is that they are often non able to be inspected and offer challenges to maintainability. You often can't replace subassemblies because it is monolithic. You have to replace the whole thing - which leads back to wastage and recyclability again!

[DanGreen006]

Yes thats a good point - how would you inspect the part? and then how would you fix a broken fin/turbulator or passage etc

or if one of these vine things on the beam of this rod snaps or bends??

[GTSBoy]

Well, that conrod is definitely more of a "because you can" rather than "because you should" thing. It doesn't have to look like a Geiger painting, they just want it to look that way so they can make people ooh and ahh.

[Shoota_77]

Any development on the mighty RB is always well and truly welcomed IMO.  You do have to get to a point where you say enough is enough however....  Particularly for us non Sydney based "normal" GT-R owners that don't want or need 1000hp.

It may be an unfair opinion but I really feel that the Japanese (tuners/worshops/performance part manufacturers) have become irrelevant in many ways.  The vast majority of the "big name" tuners and workshops are just basic workshops using basic tools and basic principals.  There are obviously some that are absolute artisans at what they do and for some, the work they do is what they're after.  The Japanese have become famous for NOT innovating.  Take cars and motorbikes for example.  Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi to name a few sell very outdated, very basic vehicles.  They're running "new" tech that Euro brands were using 5-10 years ago....  All of the motorbike brands we knew and loved as kids are now so outdated they're almost not relevant in todays offroad market (Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki are the main culprits).  When I was 12 or 13 I would have given anything to own a KX80 or CR80 two stroke dirt bike.  They were just so iconic back then.  Now there's no chance I'm riding anything other than a KTM, Husky, etc as they're chalk and cheese in terms of tech, bike weight, ergonomics, etc.  I bought a brand new Suzuki for my son a few years back and it was so bad (heavy, drum brakes, etc) that I sold it and bought him a 2 years older KTM 2 stroke that is 10 years more advanced than that bucket of a Suzuki.

Greddy to name one previously massively respected and somewhat innovative brand has to a large part realised they're no longer relevant and are leaning on Aussie companies (PRP, Artec, etc) to supply "their" new tech.  Maybe HKS are still big enough and relevant enough to actually pull off some significant RND and then produce some up to date components to bring to market?  As previously stated however they're living in the past when they were still relevant when they work out their pricing.  It's ludicrous what they charge for their "Fine Spec Engines".  I'd go to CRD/Powertune/Dahtone/ETC and spend half the money for twice the outcome any day of the week.  HKS are only relevant to American Youtubers who haven't caught on yet (yes you TommYFYeah you flop) that Japanese stuff is (unfortunately) not what is used to be.  Who knows, maybe this will be the first big step in the right direction and inspires other Japanese performance shops to break the mould and move with the times!    The yanks will no doubt really ramp things up over the next few years too.  Through shear weight of numbers they will come to the party with development of new RB platform add ons.  Copies of Aussie stuff to start with then they'll no doubt find their own lane and add their own spin on things.

Either way it's awesome that so many businesses across the world are still developing a dirty stinken lump of steel block from back in 1985!

[DanGreen006]

Yeah they've really just sat on their thumbs, the only things i look for from their scene now is maybe body parts maybe some styling, lighting just cheap sh1t like that 

Even their aftermarket wheel dominance has faded it feels

These mega buck std 24u builds from Greddy just seem madness - oh well let the yanks learn the hard way

But I'm interested to see what the yanks can do - yeah i think they will copy parts beginning with the low hanging fruit like braces etc be interesting to see what innovation they could bring to the table.

Just need someone like Dodson to make a exact copy of the chassis in chrome moly like they did for the R35 that you can just bolt everything onto panels engine etc to alleviate the prices somewhat

Id prefer a modern chassis to the original - some will say its no longer a GTR, but thats just me,

Exciting times ahead

[Shoota_77]

Towards the end of Motives latest video it echoes exactly the discussion in here about the cycle of GT-R modification- stage 1 - bolt on parts from Japan, stage 2 - fab your own parts because Japanese parts are out of date…. Aussies (and the Kiwi choice bro’s) went through the cycle years ago, America is going through it now and then in time they will start to align with Aus/Inzid and get busy cranking out their own stuff which some companies obviously are but no where near the scale of Australia particularly given the size of the US market. When they do, it will be to the benefit of all!