Billet Blocks - Oiling ?

[joshuaho96]

2 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

Are you planning to regularly track your car?

Probably not, but I'm planning on doing it every so often if only to verify the car doesn't fall apart in those conditions. Not sure how else I could test things like whether the oil system can handle the Gs and whether thermal management is good enough for extended track use. To really get extensive track time in I'd probably just buy a Miata or a Corvette instead of something that overheats within 5-10 minutes of hard track use stock. 

2 hours ago, r32-25t said:

There’s only one person that says they snap cams and he’s the biggest troll on YouTube, they won’t spin a bearing unless your tune is junk or you try and track it with a factory sump 

Sure, but seemingly half of the people in my area with Skylines have blown their engines and mired in that whole quagmire for years at a time. I'm pretty confident I still have all stock oil pan so that's going to be an ordeal I'm going to have to face at some point. Would really be nice if pulling the oil pan on the RB26 didn't require dropping the whole subframe out with the engine dangling precariously or pulling the engine out.

[Murray_Calavera]

7 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

Probably not, but I'm planning on doing it every so often if only to verify the car doesn't fall apart in those conditions. Not sure how else I could test things like whether the oil system can handle the Gs and whether thermal management is good enough for extended track use. To really get extensive track time in I'd probably just buy a Miata or a Corvette instead of something that overheats within 5-10 minutes of hard track use stock. 

You can log your data while on track. Oil pressure and whatever temperature sensors you're interested in will let you know the answers to those questions. 

Based on your use case though, I don't think you have to worry about your block being considered a consumable. 

[joshuaho96]

10 minutes ago, Murray_Calavera said:

You can log your data while on track. Oil pressure and whatever temperature sensors you're interested in will let you know the answers to those questions. 

Based on your use case though, I don't think you have to worry about your block being considered a consumable. 

Yeah, plan is to run a bunch of sensors and try to develop a good tune + engine protection and do a lot of logging during track conditions to quantify things like what the stock sump can handle in terms of lat/lon g, then start empirically testing things like additional sump breathers/accusump to see how much it helps. I would rather not discover exactly how consumable a block can be but anything could happen really considering I've only done dry compression tests.

[Butters]

2 hours ago, usmair said:

But you would have the same issue with a prepped built cast block? Surely you would warm up anything making decent power to its operating temps before driving it.

Before going billet, I did the same with my cast Block and that took around 10mins anyway.

Billet has actually made the car quiter somehow as well.

 

Stock bottom end from 1990 , makes high 700s wheel. Starts up, takes kids to school weekly for the last 4 years.

Sure I don't get on it, but that is nuts to do on the street these days anyhow.  Go roll racing for that.

Gives me a smile though before i have to face the horror that is working

 

 

 

[usmair]

51 minutes ago, Butters said:

 

Stock bottom end from 1990 , makes high 700s wheel. Starts up, takes kids to school weekly for the last 4 years.

Sure I don't get on it, but that is nuts to do on the street these days anyhow.  Go roll racing for that.

Gives me a smile though before i have to face the horror that is working

 

 

 

Yeah I miss my stock bottom end sometimes 

[Kinkstaah]

On 6/24/2023 at 2:02 PM, r32-25t said:

There’s only one person that says they snap cams and he’s the biggest troll on YouTube, they won’t spin a bearing unless your tune is junk or you try and track it with a factory sump 

Sorry, how do you ... tune.... a bearing?

[r32-25t]

28 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

Sorry, how do you ... tune.... a bearing?

Are you taking the piss? 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

Sorry, how do you ... tune.... a bearing?

Run very soft timing in the mid range to reduce bearings getting thrashed.

Once you make peak torque, then ram it in like you're pounding a .... 

[The Bogan]

13 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

Sorry, how do you ... tune.... a bearing?

 

10 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Run very soft timing in the mid range to reduce bearings getting thrashed.

Once you make peak torque, then ram it in like you're pounding a .... 

I wonder if a my stock ECU can do this

This, if possible, would help me alot with traction in 1st gear from the dig, even with 275/40 17 drag radials at 15psi on a prepped drag strip I cannot "stomp" to hard as it just spins the rears

A little less "power", from say idle to 2500-3000 (ish????) rpm, would help with the mad PD blower torque from just off idle

I really need a good aftermarket ECU with 2 maps, 1 for the street, and 1 for the strip

Yes, my throttle control Kung Fu is weak in that regard when launching 

[Kinkstaah]

I know for a fact your stock ECU can reduce timing if you use something like HPTuners to tune it. Or the car :p. Didn't you buy that traction control system for this eventuality though?

It was a serious question about the bearing by the way. It turns out severe detonation can cause a bearing to fail, (ontop of all the other melted things that happen due to detonation) or something being stupidly rich could dilute oil to the point where bearings fail.

But I think that's a 'bad tune' as much as fuelling your car with vegetable oil and morning fresh instead of 98/E85 is 'bad fuel'

[GTSBoy]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:27 PM, Kinkstaah said:

But I think that's a 'bad tune' as much as fuelling your car with vegetable oil and morning fresh instead of 98/E85 is 'bad fuel'

No no. Hammered bearings from detonation are a thing, but you can damage bearings simply from overdoing the torque output in the midrange too. Torque management in tuning is a very real thing. Not pushing it as hard as it might go around peak torque is a survival technique.

[The Bogan]

On 27/06/2023 at 6:57 PM, Kinkstaah said:

I know for a fact your stock ECU can reduce timing if you use something like HPTuners to tune it. Or the car :p. Didn't you buy that traction control system for this eventuality though?

It was a serious question about the bearing by the way. It turns out severe detonation can cause a bearing to fail, (ontop of all the other melted things that happen due to detonation) or something being stupidly rich could dilute oil to the point where bearings fail.

But I think that's a 'bad tune' as much as fuelling your car with vegetable oil and morning fresh instead of 98/E85 is 'bad fuel'

Traction control thing? yes, it is still sitting in a shelf in the shed

I asked about getting it installed, but, the joint I took it to wasn't sure about a few things as they hadn't installed one before, their concerns were splicing in the wiring to the ABS and injectors 

They recommend that if I want aftermarket traction control to look at something like a Haltech or other aftermarket ECU that pulls timing, rather than fuel

I need to find someone in NSW who has done one of these Race TCS before so I have the confidence they know what they are doing before I pull the trigger on getting it installed 

Whilst it seemed to be a cheap and reliable way to get TC, getting it installed with confidence is problematic 

[PLYNX]

Hmm . . . . you have a traction control unit sitting on the shelf . . . 

I was considering one for my R33 S1 as I've got a GTR rear end in it with the ABS wiring and sensors on it.

Also I have an old school Apexi Power FC Pro and was thinking about seeing if they could work together as the Pro has a launch control function in it 

[GTSBoy]

34 minutes ago, PLYNX said:

I've got a GTR rear end in it with the ABS wiring and sensors on it.

Any speed sensors on the front? Gunna need something.

[The Bogan]

2 hours ago, PLYNX said:

Hmm . . . . you have a traction control unit sitting on the shelf . . . 

I was considering one for my R33 S1 as I've got a GTR rear end in it with the ABS wiring and sensors on it.

Also I have an old school Apexi Power FC Pro and was thinking about seeing if they could work together as the Pro has a launch control function in it 

After talking to another tuning joint, Pulse Racing, I'm not going to be using the RaceTCS

I'm now saving for a Haltech 2500

If anyone local wants it, it will cost a bottle of Chivas Regal

PM me if you're interested, pick up from 2173

It also comes with some CAT wire and some connectors that I got to install it

[PLYNX]

2 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Any speed sensors on the front? Gunna need something.

Lacking info here ! 

Front hubs ? Gearbox speed sensor !

Looking at my previous post I didn't mention its a GTST !

And "The Bogan" I work in your area PM you soon.

That will give me something to do, wiring wise, on rainy days while I'm trying to figure out my 5 Zigen Dual Mode Clutch wiring setup.

If your gonna turn your brain to mush, may as well do it properly !

[GTSBoy]

20 minutes ago, PLYNX said:

Front hubs ?

Yuh. RWD traction control usually needs to reference an undriven wheel to say what "no slip" looks like. With an LSD allowing both wheels to slip at the same speed, rear only speed sensors can't be relied on to tell the controller that traction has been lost. And a gearbox sensor won't help because it'll tell the same story.

It's probably possible with sophisticated ramp rate measurement and limits, to say that "this is loss of traction" and "this is just very rapid acceleration while still having traction", but that is going to be gear dependent and surface condition dependent and so on. Prolly too hard for a budget application.

[Kinkstaah]

14 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

No no. Hammered bearings from detonation are a thing, but you can damage bearings simply from overdoing the torque output in the midrange too. Torque management in tuning is a very real thing. Not pushing it as hard as it might go around peak torque is a survival technique.

I agree, but in my situation I was splitting RB blocks apart and my bearings survived with no damage each time...  I agree nowadays it is very much used to avoid breaking rods and (sensibly) more and more tuners are tuning to a 'safe torque limit' and dropping power through midrange to accomodate that. Which I'm all for.

But all the dangers of too much in the middle are usually referred to as broken clutches, snapped gearboxes, bent rods, not... spun bearings. At least as a _primary_ concern?

6 hours ago, The Bogan said:

Traction control thing? yes, it is still sitting in a shelf in the shed

I asked about getting it installed, but, the joint I took it to wasn't sure about a few things as they hadn't installed one before, their concerns were splicing in the wiring to the ABS and injectors 

They recommend that if I want aftermarket traction control to look at something like a Haltech or other aftermarket ECU that pulls timing, rather than fuel

I need to find someone in NSW who has done one of these Race TCS before so I have the confidence they know what they are doing before I pull the trigger on getting it installed 

Whilst it seemed to be a cheap and reliable way to get TC, getting it installed with confidence is problematic 

It is extremely easy. Your car shuts off injectors every time you come off the throttle. It is not 'less' fuel. It is no fuel. It is Deceleration Fuel Cutoff on demand. Something that your car already has. This is more or less outlined in the RaceTCS and Racelogic documentation to address people misthinking that it will cause lean conditions in operation.

It is a DIY installation.

Pulling fuel out and cutting fuel are different. Unless you mean "pulling" as the same as "pulling literally all fuel out" which is what the Racelogic/RaceTCS does. It stops the injector firing completely.

You have a simple, elegant solution sitting on your shelf that works in conjunction with the stock ECU and does not interfere with it. Going full throttle in a torrential storm in 1st gear is available to you.

I would rather have a fuel cut in my cylinder which the car does natively every time you drive it, than an artificial rich/antilag/bad timing situation to the point where the car barely runs to slow it down. I'd rather have no combustion event in there than a really, really 'bad' one.

But who knows. Perhaps the Haltech 2500 has the function to cut fuel to a cylinder as an option, so you can.... buy the exact same thing you have...

[The Bogan]

28 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

It is extremely easy. Your car shuts off injectors every time you come off the throttle. It is not 'less' fuel. It is no fuel. It is Deceleration Fuel Cutoff on demand. Something that your car already has. This is more or less outlined in the RaceTCS and Racelogic documentation to address people misthinking that it will cause lean conditions in operation.

It is a DIY installation.

Pulling fuel out and cutting fuel are different. Unless you mean "pulling" as the same as "pulling literally all fuel out" which is what the Racelogic/RaceTCS does. It stops the injector firing completely.

You have a simple, elegant solution sitting on your shelf that works in conjunction with the stock ECU and does not interfere with it. Going full throttle in a torrential storm in 1st gear is available to you.

I would rather have a fuel cut in my cylinder which the car does natively every time you drive it, than an artificial rich/antilag/bad timing situation to the point where the car barely runs to slow it down. I'd rather have no combustion event in there than a really, really 'bad' one.

But who knows. Perhaps the Haltech 2500 has the function to cut fuel to a cylinder as an option, so you can.... buy the exact same thing you have...

My wiring skills are worse than my non existent tuning skills, so it needs to hit a shop to do it, no shop I've contacted are really keen for a few reasons

Unless you want to drive down and do it for cash, if not, then I'm locked into what my local shops are keen to do it

From talking to them there are a few options with the Haltech that doesn't involve injectors, timing, or going to an electric TB, all using the ABS

I'm looking at a timing solution talking to the ABS signal as it would negate getting a electronic TB and adapter for the Harrop HTV2300 with is a couple of grand

More research is needed

I'll stop here as it's not on topic, I'll bring it up later in my bogan build thread

Cheers for the input though

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

46 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

But all the dangers of too much in the middle are usually referred to as broken clutches, snapped gearboxes, bent rods, not... spun bearings. At least as a _primary_ concern?

Nitto brought out a wide journal bearing crank (apparently you just use 2JZ bearings) to "fix" the issue. You get a RB26 crank, get it to come on super earning with V-Cam or VCT, modern turbo, ram in heaps of boost/timing and it will thrash bearings and bin a motor.

Even Jim from CRD back in the early days said he always ran soft timing in the mid range to stop bearings chewing themselves up.