Billet Blocks - Oiling ?

[MBS206]

Hey Mark @The Bogan

The VX SS ECU, it's a cable throttle isn't it?

From memory one of the LS1 engines (VY I think) is DBW, and the ECU uses a torque management tune, rather than matching fuel to air.

Possibly able to swap from VX to VY ECU and DBW easily, and then with HPTuners, part of the torque management strategy will be speed, you just reduce torque requested based on speed and TPS.

[Ben C34]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:55 PM, MBS206 said:

Hey Mark @The Bogan

The VX SS ECU, it's a cable throttle isn't it?

From memory one of the LS1 engines (VY I think) is DBW, and the ECU uses a torque management tune, rather than matching fuel to air.

Possibly able to swap from VX to VY ECU and DBW easily, and then with HPTuners, part of the torque management strategy will be speed, you just reduce torque requested based on speed and TPS.

Its Vz, and it definitely isn't a proper torque based ecu, and tuning the dbw with it is not really possible either.

No way worth the hassle, but nice thought.

 

[Murray_Calavera]

6 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

I agree, but in my situation I was splitting RB blocks apart and my bearings survived with no damage each time...  I agree nowadays it is very much used to avoid breaking rods and (sensibly) more and more tuners are tuning to a 'safe torque limit' and dropping power through midrange to accomodate that. Which I'm all for.

But all the dangers of too much in the middle are usually referred to as broken clutches, snapped gearboxes, bent rods, not... spun bearings. At least as a _primary_ concern?

It is extremely easy. Your car shuts off injectors every time you come off the throttle. It is not 'less' fuel. It is no fuel. It is Deceleration Fuel Cutoff on demand. Something that your car already has. This is more or less outlined in the RaceTCS and Racelogic documentation to address people misthinking that it will cause lean conditions in operation.

It is a DIY installation.

Pulling fuel out and cutting fuel are different. Unless you mean "pulling" as the same as "pulling literally all fuel out" which is what the Racelogic/RaceTCS does. It stops the injector firing completely.

You have a simple, elegant solution sitting on your shelf that works in conjunction with the stock ECU and does not interfere with it. Going full throttle in a torrential storm in 1st gear is available to you.

I would rather have a fuel cut in my cylinder which the car does natively every time you drive it, than an artificial rich/antilag/bad timing situation to the point where the car barely runs to slow it down. I'd rather have no combustion event in there than a really, really 'bad' one.

But who knows. Perhaps the Haltech 2500 has the function to cut fuel to a cylinder as an option, so you can.... buy the exact same thing you have...

I started typing up quite a lengthy reply about why in a performance environment you would not want to use a sledge hammer approach to traction control of 'any amount of wheel slip detected = 100% fuel cut'. Then I thought it would make more sense to just link you to an expert for a better explanation then what I was typing. 

Syvecs do really good traction control systems, so I'll let them explain why you would want a more nuanced traction control system. 

 

[Kinkstaah]

The above video literally explains the functionality of what the Racelogic/RCS system does. (other than GPS for AWD which is not applicable).

I should have mentioned more clearly that it cuts one cylinder at a time, (not all of them, any time slip is detected) and cycles through the cylinders it actually cuts. The amount of slip is programmable into a rotary dial. (0%, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, off) You can program the strategies for what the cut pattern is (there's 4 levels of intervention pending on how far you go past your slip target - these are the default settings)



In practice you do not notice it cut in. It was damn seemless on the RB25, but on a V8 you literally don't hear it or even notice what are effectively misfires. Granted, you could use a very fast electronic throttle that is linked on a modern ECU to do this if it reacts fast enough, but injector simply not firing is damn fast and effective, and simple, and cheap.

Plenty of videos online showing it's effectiveness.

[Murray_Calavera]

That's a lot better then what I was picturing. I thought you were describing a system where when there is wheel slip, it's like hitting a brick wall, all fuel cut, then pause, then power comes back.

I've never heard of the Racelogic TCS until now, so I'm just having a guess here. It seems like the market for these are for people without a modern aftermarket ECU? Kinda like back in the early 2000's when we all had some form of boost control box but now is entirely controlled by the ECU.

[Kinkstaah]

3 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

That's a lot better then what I was picturing. I thought you were describing a system where when there is wheel slip, it's like hitting a brick wall, all fuel cut, then pause, then power comes back.

I've never heard of the Racelogic TCS until now, so I'm just having a guess here. It seems like the market for these are for people without a modern aftermarket ECU? Kinda like back in the early 2000's when we all had some form of boost control box but now is entirely controlled by the ECU.

I agree with you on that. I had it with a Haltech PS2000 (separately) and it did cause potential issues because I had a wideband AFR fuel controller on the Haltech, and traction control's 'lean' spikes (as read by the wideband, because persistent 5cyl misfires would come up as lean) could cause engine protection to kick in.

Given all you need is the ECU to read wheel speed, and then know if there's a discrepancy then do [X] I was surprised it wasn't part of the modern ECU's at the time. It now pretty much is, for that exact reason. Nowadays a modern ECU will incorporate this if you are buying, as well as things like Wideband fuel trims instead of narrowband and other cool shit. Still, people who already HAVE an ECU that doesnt have these features, could get this instead of shelling out $3500+ to upgrade their aftermarket ECU to a slightly better aftermarket ECU...

Still, for 90's jap cars (and LS1-3-7's) they are in this sweet spot where this is really super effective. It's by far one of the best mods I've ever done as these cars often benefit the most from it, given they have massive midrange power skids across pretty much every platform if you go WOT at 3000rpm in 1st, or 2nd gear.

More modern motors probably don't need it/don't let you ever disable factory TC/factory TC is good enough, or have additional considerations like direct AND port injection where simply grounding out an injector just won't function and cause all sorts of knock on issues.

[joshuaho96]

6 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

I agree with you on that. I had it with a Haltech PS2000 (separately) and it did cause potential issues because I had a wideband AFR fuel controller on the Haltech, and traction control's 'lean' spikes (as read by the wideband, because persistent 5cyl misfires would come up as lean) could cause engine protection to kick in.

Given all you need is the ECU to read wheel speed, and then know if there's a discrepancy then do [X] I was surprised it wasn't part of the modern ECU's at the time. It now pretty much is, for that exact reason. Nowadays a modern ECU will incorporate this if you are buying, as well as things like Wideband fuel trims instead of narrowband and other cool shit. Still, people who already HAVE an ECU that doesnt have these features, could get this instead of shelling out $3500+ to upgrade their aftermarket ECU to a slightly better aftermarket ECU...

Still, for 90's jap cars (and LS1-3-7's) they are in this sweet spot where this is really super effective. It's by far one of the best mods I've ever done as these cars often benefit the most from it, given they have massive midrange power skids across pretty much every platform if you go WOT at 3000rpm in 1st, or 2nd gear.

More modern motors probably don't need it/don't let you ever disable factory TC/factory TC is good enough, or have additional considerations like direct AND port injection where simply grounding out an injector just won't function and cause all sorts of knock on issues.

The issues you're describing here is kind of why I want to have a fully integrated ECU. Also pulling fuel even if it's a hard cylinder cut seems unwise from a harmonics perspective. Maybe it's no worse than an I5 or I4 done right but I'd rather do DBW to control it. Boost by gear and tuning the power delivery can also help avoid generating all that boost/power your chassis realistically couldn't handle either.

[MBS206]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:19 PM, Kinkstaah said:

The above video literally explains the functionality of what the Racelogic/RCS system does. (other than GPS for AWD which is not applicable).

I should have mentioned more clearly that it cuts one cylinder at a time, (not all of them, any time slip is detected) and cycles through the cylinders it actually cuts. The amount of slip is programmable into a rotary dial. (0%, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, off) You can program the strategies for what the cut pattern is (there's 4 levels of intervention pending on how far you go past your slip target - these are the default settings)



In practice you do not notice it cut in. It was damn seemless on the RB25, but on a V8 you literally don't hear it or even notice what are effectively misfires. Granted, you could use a very fast electronic throttle that is linked on a modern ECU to do this if it reacts fast enough, but injector simply not firing is damn fast and effective, and simple, and cheap.

Plenty of videos online showing it's effectiveness.

On the topic of throttle reduction, typically that is something a modern ECU will do later on if skip doesn't reduce.

Cutting a cylinder is an instantaneous loss of torque to X degree.

Adjusting throttle position has a time delay associated with it, as it takes time to start to get the butterfly to rotate even with a good motor on the butterfly. It's a physical item that needs moving, and there is also a bit of a time delay for power to drop away once the throttle has moved due to physics of moving things, such as the air through the runners.

Killing an injector stops torque on that cylinder immediately, while closing the throttle might take 5 to 10 more revolutions depending on a lot of variable factors (rpm of engine, inlet design, blah blah blah).

 

I know the Ford Falcon ECU it has a plethora of strategies to reduce torque for TCS, starting with injector cut, and all the way through to closing the throttle (depending on the Barra motor, and my memory it also does things like altering cam advance as this will affect torque too).

They have a pretty cool complicated setup in them to do so. It's all tuneable on the Barra ECU 

[MBS206]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:28 PM, Ben C34 said:

Its Vz, and it definitely isn't a proper torque based ecu, and tuning the dbw with it is not really possible either.

No way worth the hassle, but nice thought.

 

Well, that saves Mark from needing to research further!

 

I've not looked at the strategy fully of the VZ, got any links for brief read on its strategy and why it's not a proper torque based ECU?

[joshuaho96]

36 minutes ago, MBS206 said:

On the topic of throttle reduction, typically that is something a modern ECU will do later on if skip doesn't reduce.

Cutting a cylinder is an instantaneous loss of torque to X degree.

Adjusting throttle position has a time delay associated with it, as it takes time to start to get the butterfly to rotate even with a good motor on the butterfly. It's a physical item that needs moving, and there is also a bit of a time delay for power to drop away once the throttle has moved due to physics of moving things, such as the air through the runners.

Killing an injector stops torque on that cylinder immediately, while closing the throttle might take 5 to 10 more revolutions depending on a lot of variable factors (rpm of engine, inlet design, blah blah blah).

 

I know the Ford Falcon ECU it has a plethora of strategies to reduce torque for TCS, starting with injector cut, and all the way through to closing the throttle (depending on the Barra motor, and my memory it also does things like altering cam advance as this will affect torque too).

They have a pretty cool complicated setup in them to do so. It's all tuneable on the Barra ECU 

Kind of surprising that they start with fuel cut to a cylinder, I would have figured adjusting timing within a range would be the primary strategy. Maybe that causes excessive EGTs?

[The Bogan]

25 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

Kind of surprising that they start with fuel cut to a cylinder, I would have figured adjusting timing within a range would be the primary strategy. Maybe that causes excessive EGTs?

From my limited understanding cutting fuel when the ABS detects wheel spin is connected to available traction, so if your on a good surface with good rubber that gives grip you still have all of the powers, as apposed to cutting timing in an area of the map that may not actually need it, dependent on available traction, well, when it comes to my limited understanding of anything to do with tuning and traction control 

I am learning new stuff every day, well.....I think I am anyways

[GTSBoy]

45 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

I would have figured adjusting timing within a range would be the primary strategy.

It doesn't cause a big enough torque cut for properly powerful engines. And yes, exhaust temp rise is undesirable.

Fuel cut on a single cylinder is a really fine grained torque reduction. You can go from a single cylinder cut for one engine cycle all the way up to rotating cuts across all the cylinders for as big a fraction of the number of firing cycles as the engine will take without stalling.

12 minutes ago, The Bogan said:

as apposed to cutting timing in an area of the map that may not actually need it, dependent on available traction,

Yeah nah. Josh's ignition timing reduction would also have been dynamic in response to ABS sensor reporting slip, same as if it was done by fuel cut. Not perma-reduction in the map. Perma-reduction in the timing map is more in line with the not very good idea of programming in outright reduced torque targets in the ECU for the lower gears. That's no different to just knobbling the tune by any other means and making less power all the time.

[Murray_Calavera]

1 hour ago, joshuaho96 said:

Kind of surprising that they start with fuel cut to a cylinder, I would have figured adjusting timing within a range would be the primary strategy. Maybe that causes excessive EGTs?

Reducing timing plays a large part in modern traction control systems. I'm surprised how many comments have been made that cutting fuel to a cylinder is an 'instantaneous reduction of torque' but in a port injected engine, it's not actually 'instantaneous' while the time it takes for the last injection of fuel to move though the cylinder and be burnt is indeed quick, it's not instant.

Cutting timing though is an instant reduction in torque, the ECU can start with this and then start cutting fuel as well if required. 

I'm probably splitting hairs here as the sensation to the driver may feel instantaneous in the case of the fuel cut only strategy, however I think it's still worth mentioning all of this from a technical standpoint. 

[Ben C34]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:35 AM, MBS206 said:

Well, that saves Mark from needing to research further!

 

I've not looked at the strategy fully of the VZ, got any links for brief read on its strategy and why it's not a proper torque based ECU?

This should help generally.

https://www.racepagesdigital.com/blog/learn-your-gm-ecms/1008

You can likely do what Mark wants with his ecu, it's just that typically tuners Max out the torque limits.

None of the commodore ecus are proper torque based.

[Predator1]

On 23/06/2023 at 11:12 PM, usmair said:

Billets are sick. 

12 mins mine takes from dead cold to be able to drive.

Just start it and go back inside wash your face, brush your teeth, get ready and it'll be good to go.

Lighter, stronger, newer.

Anyone who says you can't drive it on the street is talking nonsense.

I'm guessing this is so your oil temps come up? Or is it coolant temps as well? Do you run oil coolers? What temps do you start driving yours at, and what grade oil?

[Duncan]

And to add to that....if you have a dry sump you can get 240v oil heaters for the oil tank which might let you cut a lot of idling time. It can't be good for longevity or oil quality to sit running rich with loose clearances for 12min....

[The Bogan]

On all of my cars and bikes, both built engines and standard, I just start them, put my seat belt on, then drive off like Nanna, I've never had an issue

In saying that, they don't get the loud pedal for at least 15 minutes from a cold start

15 minutes is my rule of thumb because I don't have a oil temp gauge

Disclaimer: I'm just assume that my oil, 10w40, is at least matching my coolant temps after 15 minutes of normal driving

What do people who monitor oil temp find IRT how long it takes for engine oil to get around, say, 90°c from a cold start, and what weight oils????

I remember watching some guys at the drags doing maintenance between runs, one thing they did was a oil change, the oil looked like it had the consistency of water

When I talked to him about it he said the engine was built for low weight oil, it was all about power, clearances, oil pump, as well as the oil needed to be thin as it was started, rolled in for a burn out, then launched for the run, all within about 30 seconds, after the run the oil was dropped again as it considered toast from methanol contamination

Yes, that is at the extreme end of performance for oil weights and alcohol contamination, but I did find it interesting, especially as everyone was using E85 in their built daily/cruisers at the time, and spun bearings were a common occurrence 10???? years ago

I assume all the people running billet blocks and big(ish) power are using E85, how often do people change their oil running E85?

I also assume it isn't every 5k km like me on 98

I assume everyone will drink for every time I said assume

[Murray_Calavera]

1 hour ago, The Bogan said:

On all of my cars and bikes, both built engines and standard, I just start them, put my seat belt on, then drive off like Nanna, I've never had an issue

In saying that, they don't get the loud pedal for at least 15 minutes from a cold start

15 minutes is my rule of thumb because I don't have a oil temp gauge

Disclaimer: I'm just assume that my oil, 10w40, is at least matching my coolant temps after 15 minutes of normal driving

What do people who monitor oil temp find IRT how long it takes for engine oil to get around, say, 90°c from a cold start, and what weight oils????

I remember watching some guys at the drags doing maintenance between runs, one thing they did was a oil change, the oil looked like it had the consistency of water

When I talked to him about it he said the engine was built for low weight oil, it was all about power, clearances, oil pump, as well as the oil needed to be thin as it was started, rolled in for a burn out, then launched for the run, all within about 30 seconds, after the run the oil was dropped again as it considered toast from methanol contamination

Yes, that is at the extreme end of performance for oil weights and alcohol contamination, but I did find it interesting, especially as everyone was using E85 in their built daily/cruisers at the time, and spun bearings were a common occurrence 10???? years ago

I assume all the people running billet blocks and big(ish) power are using E85, how often do people change their oil running E85?

I also assume it isn't every 5k km like me on 98

I assume everyone will drink for every time I said assume

I hope this helps even a little. So on a 20 - 25ish degree day, my oil temp tracks my water temp by like 10 degrees. So water temp 50 degrees, oil temp 40 degrees. They pretty much rise that way together til they both come up to temp. Water never really rises above 75, oil sits around 90ish. 

I run a decent sized oil cooler with a thermostat. Dunno when it opens? maybe around 90ish? No idea. 

I also have the factory coolant/oil heat exchanger thingo which helps bring up oil temps nicely. 

If you're super curious, I can log data on my next drive if you like. 

[The Bogan]

14 minutes ago, Murray_Calavera said:

I hope this helps even a little. So on a 20 - 25ish degree day, my oil temp tracks my water temp by like 10 degrees. So water temp 50 degrees, oil temp 40 degrees. They pretty much rise that way together til they both come up to temp. Water never really rises above 75, oil sits around 90ish. 

I run a decent sized oil cooler with a thermostat. Dunno when it opens? maybe around 90ish? No idea. 

I also have the factory coolant/oil heat exchanger thingo which helps bring up oil temps nicely. 

If you're super curious, I can log data on my next drive if you like. 

That would be awesome 

Whilst I don't understand alot of stuff, I love looking at data

[Murray_Calavera]

4 minutes ago, The Bogan said:

That would be awesome 

Whilst I don't understand alot of stuff, I love looking at data

No worries, I'll get the data up this week some time.