NZ R33 Long Term Build

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

52 minutes ago, R3N3 said:

While I was at it and the rear suspension top hats were accessible 

Get extenders and then punch a small hole through the parcel tray 😎

[R3N3]

10 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Get extenders and then punch a small hole through the parcel tray 😎

I did think of it but I don’t see me firming up the suspension any time soon haha

[R3N3]

new covers and fuel filter. They didn’t come with the original coil cover but that doesn’t phase me. I may do these ones wrinkle red

 

also, for the update fuel system, I want to do create a mount on the strut tower, something like this:

I found this image in SAU, so in my usual style I’m stealing other people’s good ideas… I don’t need the flex fuel parallel fitting but I want to get the FPR, fuel filter and flex sensor all neatly packaged low on the strut tower but still be able to have easy access to the filter for servicing. I may even try to get something 3d printed for that OEM look (if I can be bothered)

[MBS206]

16 hours ago, R3N3 said:

new covers and fuel filter. They didn’t come with the original coil cover but that doesn’t phase me. I may do these ones wrinkle red

 

also, for the update fuel system, I want to do create a mount on the strut tower, something like this:

I found this image in SAU, so in my usual style I’m stealing other people’s good ideas… I don’t need the flex fuel parallel fitting but I want to get the FPR, fuel filter and flex sensor all neatly packaged low on the strut tower but still be able to have easy access to the filter for servicing. I may even try to get something 3d printed for that OEM look (if I can be bothered)

Powder coat a bracket like that a dark colour close to the factory brackets and it'll look good.

 

If you have a 3D printer, print yourself a few die sets up that go in a bench vice, or a hydraulic press. Adding the little lip roll for added strength, and make it from a slightly thinner metal so it's easier to work with. It'll be just as rigid, and with the lips curled and powder coated will be even more factory.

You can also make up a die set to put some added little grooves/channels in the sheet for strength in the middle

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

On 17/10/2023 at 1:45 PM, R3N3 said:

I did think of it but I don’t see me firming up the suspension any time soon haha

Took a photo of the shit box after I dropped my son off at daycare.

Doesn't sit flush as the speaker grill is in the way so it needed to be offset to one side. Does the job, with the old tint you couldn't see it, but now you can. 

My OCD is firing up so at some point will redo it.

[R3N3]

37 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Took a photo of the shit box after I dropped my son off at daycare.

Doesn't sit flush as the speaker grill is in the way so it needed to be offset to one side. Does the job, with the old tint you couldn't see it, but now you can. 

My OCD is firing up so at some point will redo it.

You would really have to know what your looking for to spot that… you could just remove the white writing?

also, every time I drive mine I always end up googling “R33 air suspension”. I have been using it as a daily for the past few weeks, so the thought is there quite frequently lol.

[R3N3]

1 hour ago, MBS206 said:

Powder coat a bracket like that a dark colour close to the factory brackets and it'll look good.

 

If you have a 3D printer, print yourself a few die sets up that go in a bench vice, or a hydraulic press. Adding the little lip roll for added strength, and make it from a slightly thinner metal so it's easier to work with. It'll be just as rigid, and with the lips curled and powder coated will be even more factory.

You can also make up a die set to put some added little grooves/channels in the sheet for strength in the middle

I will definitely go a black bracket. Ideally I’d like a nice moulded 3d printed piece that everything just fits into but that may be rev2, as I don’t have a 3d printer (my mate does). I just wish there were products like an FPR with ethanol content/pressure/temp sensors built in..

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

14 minutes ago, R3N3 said:

You would really have to know what your looking for to spot that… you could just remove the white writing?

also, every time I drive mine I always end up googling “R33 air suspension”. I have been using it as a daily for the past few weeks, so the thought is there quite frequently lol.

Possibly, seems like buying a F80 M3 is easier lol.

The prices have come back to earth quite a bit, it's very tempting.

I know of I brought one home my wife would stab me (unless the R33 goes for good money, one can dream).

 

What spring rate are you running? Might be worth while just lowering the rear spring rate for comfort, also running thicker anti roll bars don't help with comfort.

[R3N3]

1 hour ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Possibly, seems like buying a F80 M3 is easier lol.

The prices have come back to earth quite a bit, it's very tempting.

I know of I brought one home my wife would stab me (unless the R33 goes for good money, one can dream).

 

What spring rate are you running? Might be worth while just lowering the rear spring rate for comfort, also running thicker anti roll bars don't help with comfort.

Honestly, the F80 M3 isn’t the comfiest either.. I think it’s because I go from the kodiaq or the Carnival to the 33, which is like going from a couch to sitting on the pointy end of a coke bottle..

I do run white line adjustable sway bars but they are set to the softest.. it’s probably the spring rates, as I’m just running BC golds with the standard springs

[GTSBoy]

2 minutes ago, R3N3 said:

as I’m just running BC golds with the standard springs

Yes well. They're 6/8 rates yeah? Coupled with the fairly nasty valving in BC coilovers, it's no surprise that the ride can be jarring. You can run rates that are double that with better dampers, and not complain.

[R3N3]

28 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Yes well. They're 6/8 rates yeah? Coupled with the fairly nasty valving in BC coilovers, it's no surprise that the ride can be jarring. You can run rates that are double that with better dampers, and not complain.

I’m not sure but at the same time I don’t expect them to be amazing, as they are a budget coil-over.. I’ll eventually get round to improving them/replacing them one day, they are just not the top of the list at this stage as things like AC is more of a priority…

I believe there are a couple of local Australian firms that make quality coilovers MCA and another? What would be a decent recommendation?

[GTSBoy]

MCA and Shockworks are the usual recommendations.

MCA tend towards higher spring rates and softer ARBs, which obviously works for them, but does not align with everyone's opinion. I'm not sure whether the Shockworks guys have a similar preferential leaning to or away from stiff ARBs. These preferences do need to be taken into consideration when looking at buying stuff, because your own driving style and preferences may or may not work so well against the opposite preference. Or some relearning would be required, etc etc.

I think MCA is more of a case of "I'll take option X from the product lines offered" and Shockworks might be more toward the "Tell us what you want and we'll drag it together for you". MCA obviously can offer to do more custom stuff also.

I'm really speaking out of turn here though, because I haven't dealt with either of them. I'm running on Sydneykid B6s and Kings Springs and big Whiteline bars. So I'm rolling around on a billy cart compared to what I could have if I spent a bit more with either of those crowds.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Some past & current experience. 

I've done the whole SK Bilstein Kit on both R33 shitboxes, 1st R33 came with it from the previous owner, 2nd R33 I bought them used off (can't remember his name) when he converted his R33 into a track car. 1st R33 shit box had factory ARBs and somewhat the car was quite compliant for road use. 2nd R33 shit box (current one) I ran the thickest Whiteline ARBs, at the time I "thought" it drove and rode well and that's about the same time I started to hit the track as well. I found the thick ARBs would allow the car to ride "flat" and corner "ok", however it would be twitchy AF. Not to mention, because the car had really soft spring rates at the front, the pitch on hard braking was huge, causing even more snap oversteer out of turns.

Anyhow decided to bite the bullet and go MCA X-R, at the time I recall them recommending something like a 10kg(f) and 5kg(r) or so, I asked for it to be 10kg(f) and 7kg(r). Installed as is, with the silly Whiteline ARB set on hard, the car handled like absolute shit. Even in the instructions from MCA, they clearly mention to run the factory ARBs and ONLY use them to correct oversteer OR understeer. So I set them both on the softest setting and wow.. straight up the car felt better as each wheel was able to move without full dependence of the opposing wheel and the slight body roll actually enabled the car to turn/grip better instead of understeer into gutters.

Fast forward to Wakefield Park closing and me trying out SMSP, I found the current setup a bit too soft at the front. Once again, hit up MCA support and they recommended going a stiffer front spring that was usable on the street & on the track. Initially a 12kg(f) was recommended however @34GeeTeeTee had a set of 13kg(f) lying around so I grabbed them off him. Back on the track and presto, shaved off another 5 seconds.

 

In terms of road use, if you're not going to crash into a pot hole and/or drive over ripple strips, you'll be plesantly surprised the ride quality is near somewhat like a R33 with Bislteins, provided you're just driving on roads and not driving into pot holes, running over things, etc.

I know it's hard to believe, however if anyone has been in my car they will know it's actually pretty comfortable when compared to someone with run of the mill BC BR 8kg(f)/6kg(r). I've sat in a few R33, Silvias, etc. with BC BR and they are very, very firm. If you try to adjust the dampers to soft, then end up being super bouncy and unable to attenuate the suspension oscillations. I suspect it has to do with the oil visocity that is used by either brand - however that just an educated guess at best.

So TL;DR, Dose hates thick ARBs now. You have body roll? fix it with stiffer springs. Car rides like shit? fix it with better shocks.

[MBS206]

2 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Some past & current experience. 

I've done the whole SK Bilstein Kit on both R33 shitboxes, 1st R33 came with it from the previous owner, 2nd R33 I bought them used off (can't remember his name) when he converted his R33 into a track car. 1st R33 shit box had factory ARBs and somewhat the car was quite compliant for road use. 2nd R33 shit box (current one) I ran the thickest Whiteline ARBs, at the time I "thought" it drove and rode well and that's about the same time I started to hit the track as well. I found the thick ARBs would allow the car to ride "flat" and corner "ok", however it would be twitchy AF. Not to mention, because the car had really soft spring rates at the front, the pitch on hard braking was huge, causing even more snap oversteer out of turns.

Anyhow decided to bite the bullet and go MCA X-R, at the time I recall them recommending something like a 10kg(f) and 5kg(r) or so, I asked for it to be 10kg(f) and 7kg(r). Installed as is, with the silly Whiteline ARB set on hard, the car handled like absolute shit. Even in the instructions from MCA, they clearly mention to run the factory ARBs and ONLY use them to correct oversteer OR understeer. So I set them both on the softest setting and wow.. straight up the car felt better as each wheel was able to move without full dependence of the opposing wheel and the slight body roll actually enabled the car to turn/grip better instead of understeer into gutters.

Fast forward to Wakefield Park closing and me trying out SMSP, I found the current setup a bit too soft at the front. Once again, hit up MCA support and they recommended going a stiffer front spring that was usable on the street & on the track. Initially a 12kg(f) was recommended however @34GeeTeeTee had a set of 13kg(f) lying around so I grabbed them off him. Back on the track and presto, shaved off another 5 seconds.

 

In terms of road use, if you're not going to crash into a pot hole and/or drive over ripple strips, you'll be plesantly surprised the ride quality is near somewhat like a R33 with Bislteins, provided you're just driving on roads and not driving into pot holes, running over things, etc.

I know it's hard to believe, however if anyone has been in my car they will know it's actually pretty comfortable when compared to someone with run of the mill BC BR 8kg(f)/6kg(r). I've sat in a few R33, Silvias, etc. with BC BR and they are very, very firm. If you try to adjust the dampers to soft, then end up being super bouncy and unable to attenuate the suspension oscillations. I suspect it has to do with the oil visocity that is used by either brand - however that just an educated guess at best.

So TL;DR, Dose hates thick ARBs now. You have body roll? fix it with stiffer springs. Car rides like shit? fix it with better shocks.

What people don't realise, and this is what I got taught over 15 years ago by a very very old school wheel alignment guru (who used to do a lot of setup work on circuit cars, and hill climb cars), is to tune your anti roll bar / sway bar LAST.

 

The reason you leave it till last, is how an anti roll bar works, isn't by adding traction, it actually removes.

Hence the old, issues in the front in the corner? Play with the rear sway bar.

The stiffer you go, the more apparent grip you have at the other end, but what it has really done is remove grip on the end you went stiffer.

Added to that, anti roll/sway bars do nothing to stop weight transfer front to rear, as such, soft springs, stiff roll bar, is lots of dive under brakes turn in, car attempts to body roll, outside rear tyre gets loaded with more weight, but in doing so is actually unloading the inside rear tyre! And that, is why the famous Williams active suspension wins, as it sees a wheel being pushed up, and it pushes that wheel back down harder!

For some race cars, soft spring, stiff ARB, can actually work really well depending on the type of racing you're doing where, for example track is super smooth, and you need the car to stay flat, eg, NASCAR, but even they in my understanding have changed their ways back and forth over the years, I'm not sure of their current philosophy.

If you have a super stiff anti roll bar, and your in a corner, and hit a bump with one tyre, it's now transferring that load from one side to the other. Effectively, hit a bump with one tyre, but both springs left and right are working to stop it, hence more stiff, more bouncy, as the wheel that hit the bump, is now trying to unload the wheel that didn't hit the bump!

 

The other side, is dampeners and their softness/hardness are NOT meant to be used to make a cars suspension firmer or stiffer per se how people use them. It is, as the name implies, to dampen the oscillations. To hard, and the dampener is doing the work the spring should be, and shit does feel stiff. Too soft and you get multiple oscillations. One bump turns into feeling like you're rolling through waves on the ocean.

 

Therefore, dampeners come AFTER getting spring rates selected. Yes, driver to driver there's always a little bit of tweaking etc. And oddly, changing tyres, also changes how you need to alter things, why? Well that tyre is an undampened spring... Typically, the bigger and softer the side wall, the less oomph transferred from tyre to wheel to suspension. So now you need to tweak it all again (dampeners, sway bars, and the whole cars alignment in general!)

 

Looking into how the suspension moves, how weight moves, how the car rolls, it's all huge.

And again, go from one car with suspension style of A, and move to another car with the same style, but Arms have different geometry, can be a game of starting all over again in how and what you do with suspension.

 

I also wonder on the cheap coil overs, how accurate is their spring rates... Has any one ever tested that?

[MBS206]

5 hours ago, R3N3 said:

I will definitely go a black bracket. Ideally I’d like a nice moulded 3d printed piece that everything just fits into but that may be rev2, as I don’t have a 3d printer (my mate does). I just wish there were products like an FPR with ethanol content/pressure/temp sensors built in..

If you're good with fusion, make yourself up the part with the curves and rolls etc. Then use that to build yourself a few dies your friend could 3D print you. It'll probably be a multi stage bend / press, though it is possible in one press too!

Then get him to print it out

can even do online ordering of the piece of steel laser cut. If you have some bolt holes or weight saving holes, these can be used in the dies to locate the steel in place as it bends

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

14 hours ago, MBS206 said:

If you have a super stiff anti roll bar, and your in a corner, and hit a bump with one tyre, it's now transferring that load from one side to the other. Effectively, hit a bump with one tyre, but both springs left and right are working to stop it, hence more stiff, more bouncy, as the wheel that hit the bump, is now trying to unload the wheel that didn't hit the bump!

Better not tell the folks at Whiteline that!

They have a good marketing team, all this grip activated marketing fluff.

A car with stiff springs and not overly stiff ARBs feels so much nicer than a car with soft springs and ARBs made from Thor's mallet handle.

I know there are very opposing views on this however look at the touge cars in Japan, they follow the same philosophy of stiffer springs to control pitch and roll. The Japanese only got a bad rep because their suspension is often called "junk" as they don't suit our roads. But really who's to blame here? Our shit, 3rd world grade roads or their suspension designed for smooth roads?

[GTSBoy]

13 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

their suspension designed for smooth roads?

Their suspension is to blame. It is possible to make high quality dampers. They just didn't bother.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

26 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Their suspension is to blame. It is possible to make high quality dampers. They just didn't bother.

Their design requirements consisted of Japanese roads and Japanese circuits. They probably thought the rest of the developed nations had roads like theirs.

[GTSBoy]

Bah. I still design my stuff to handle more than the expected minima.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 minute ago, GTSBoy said:

Bah. I still design my stuff to handle more than the expected minima.

Because we are Aussies, make sure the cnut never comes back attitude.