Sending my car in for a 360kw setup next month, need advice.

[IM-32-FK]

3 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

It's not really the extended sump causing issues, but the higher flowing oil pump that normally goes along with the extended sump. If the head can only drain at X but the bigger pump is flowing Y into the head, you get the idea. 

So the issue of oil pooling in the head needs to be addressed. I believe both the Lewis modified sump and the Aeroflow sump have fittings to allow you to vent the sump to the catch can. This is the main issue, blow-by builds in the bottom on the motor slowing the return/drain of oil from the head. 

Up to you if you want to do anything further like head drain/enlarged oil returns/oil restrictors in the head/etc 

What oil pump will you be using?

Sounds like too much work for now to be able to do it properly. I’ll do it a bit down the line.

dose pipe told me the neo has factory n1 oil pump so I’ll stick with that.

[Murray_Calavera]

2 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

Sounds like too much work for now to be able to do it properly. I’ll do it a bit down the line.

dose pipe told me the neo has factory n1 oil pump so I’ll stick with that.

It would only be a benefit to add the extended and baffled sump, regardless of any other oil control mods you currently have. 

Having said that, if the engine is currently in the car, yeah it's a bit of a ball-ache to install the sump. 

I imagine most will do all of their oil control mods after they pop their first engine and it needs to come out for a refresh. 

[The Bogan]

5 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

It's not really the extended sump causing issues, but the higher flowing oil pump that normally goes along with the extended sump. If the head can only drain at X but the bigger pump is flowing Y into the head, you get the idea. 

So the issue of oil pooling in the head needs to be addressed. I believe both the Lewis modified sump and the Aeroflow sump have fittings to allow you to vent the sump to the catch can. This is the main issue, blow-by builds in the bottom on the motor slowing the return/drain of oil from the head. 

Up to you if you want to do anything further like head drain/enlarged oil returns/oil restrictors in the head/etc 

What oil pump will you be using?

An issue I had was the Tomei pump I was using, it was sending so much oil to the head at high RPM that the head, even with smaller restictors, and enlarged oil drains in the head and block, and a head return line/vent installed to the sump couldn't keep up with the oil being sent to the head, the fix was changing the spring on the bypass of the oil pump or.........something.....UNIGROUP ended up sorting out the issue, plus a big AOS/baffled catch can with a one way valve that returned to the sump helped

High RPM and a high volume oil pressure is problematic in a RB

This was over 10 years ago though, I'm sure this has been well sorted by now with all the high reving RB monsters still using a stock location high volume oil pump

Or, go dry sump and fix that dilemma, but then your oil pressure relys on a belt

Or, spin a LS with a high volume, high pressure oil pump, on a stock but boosted long block, and not have a issue 🤪

[IM-32-FK]

34 minutes ago, Murray_Calavera said:

It would only be a benefit to add the extended and baffled sump, regardless of any other oil control mods you currently have. 

Having said that, if the engine is currently in the car, yeah it's a bit of a ball-ache to install the sump. 

I imagine most will do all of their oil control mods after they pop their first engine and it needs to come out for a refresh. 

 @The Bogan Does the oil pump and pickup work based on revs or based on how much oil is in the sump or head. Because if I’m running the factory n1 oil pump, then getting a 6L sump won’t cause more oil in the head, simply because with the current 4.5L factory sump, it feeds and drains accordingly so there isn’t starvation or too much oil in the head. So with the 6L sump it’s going to feed and drain at the same rate, except theirs gonna be more oil in the sump. Is this correct?

I don’t know if I explained it right but I hope you get what I’m saying

Edited May 5, 2023 by IM-32-FK

[Murray_Calavera]

35 minutes ago, IM-32-FK said:

 @The Bogan Does the oil pump and pickup work based on revs or based on how much oil is in the sump or head. Because if I’m running the factory n1 oil pump, then getting a 6L sump won’t cause more oil in the head, simply because with the current 4.5L factory sump, it feeds and drains accordingly so there isn’t starvation or too much oil in the head. So with the 6L sump it’s going to feed and drain at the same rate, except theirs gonna be more oil in the sump. Is this correct?

I don’t know if I explained it right but I hope you get what I’m saying

Your oil pump does not know how much oil is in the sump. Your oil pump is driven by the crank, the faster the crank spins the faster your pump spins.

What your saying is correct, that's why having the extended and baffled sump will be an advantage. You'll have more oil in your sump with that setup.

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, Murray_Calavera said:

having the extended and baffled sump will be an advantage. You'll have more oil in your sump with that setup.

This is because even if you have half your oil stuck in the head, there will still be some in the sump. With that much oil in the head on a standard sump, there's very little in the sump and you're seconds away from kablooie.

(Not telling you how to suck eggs Murray. That was aimed at IM-32-FK).

Edited May 5, 2023 by GTSBoy

[IM-32-FK]

On 18/4/2023 at 10:04 PM, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

It already runs a N1 oil pump.

A nice big sump would be good insurance.

Just an update.

you are wrong. Factory gtt doesn’t not run a n1 pump. That’s false information.

im also surprised no one mentioned that I should run oil and fuel pressure setup, along with a a wideband 02. I had to buy these as the tuner said he wouldn’t touch it without.

I also decided to run a keypad. I’m just asking what buttons to run. 
 

- low boost

-moderate boost

-high boost

- anti lag on/off switch

- electric radiator fan runs 20% faster

- 100% ign cut on 2 step for bangs and wanks

- 2step at 3500rpm with a robust ign and fuel cut

-2step at 4000rpm with a robust ign and fuel cut

-extremely retarded timing

-i want a spastic setting where the explosion is massive bangs and flames to be like hiroshima Nagasaki, what is this called?

what are some of the more sensible features I should run? Cruise control and traction control? Anything else?

what are some other features you recommend I put on the keypad? Arp head bolts on an unopened neo engine running 380-400kw at the engine. Thanks

Edited August 13, 2023 by IM-32-FK

[joshuaho96]

6 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

Just an update.

you are wrong. Factory gtt doesn’t not run a n1 pump. That’s false information.

im also surprised no one mentioned that I should run oil and fuel pressure setup, along with a a wideband 02. I had to buy these as the tuner said he wouldn’t touch it without.

I also decided to run a keypad. I’m just asking what buttons to run. 
 

- low boost

-moderate boost

-high boost

- anti lag on/off switch

- electric radiator fan runs 20% faster

- 100% ign cut on 2 step for bangs and wanks

- 2step at 3500rpm with a robust ign and fuel cut

-2step at 4000rpm with a robust ign and fuel cut

-extremely retarded timing

-i want a spastic setting where the explosion is massive bangs and flames to be like hiroshima Nagasaki, what is this called?

what are some of the more sensible features I should run? Cruise control and traction control? Anything else?

what are some other features you recommend I put on the keypad? Arp head bolts on an unopened neo engine running 380-400kw at the engine. Thanks

Quite literally the first post said a modern ECU with engine protections. What engine protections do you think you can run without wideband, oil pressure, and fuel pressure?

[Murray_Calavera]

8 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

im also surprised no one mentioned that I should run oil and fuel pressure setup, along with a a wideband 02. I had to buy these as the tuner said he wouldn’t touch it without.

Cars have been tuned without those sensors fitted for a long long time now. When the car is on the dyno, they put a wideband o2 sensor up the car's but to get the AFR. So you didn't "have' to buy those sensors, you could have taken the car to another tuner. 

Obviously it makes sense to run those sensors though. Did you also install an oil temp and coolant pressure sensor? Those are also sensors that you would run engine protection on. But yeah, do whatever you think is best. 

9 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

-i want a spastic setting where the explosion is massive bangs and flames to be like hiroshima Nagasaki, what is this called?

It's called a broken turbo, burnt valves, broken oil pump.... 

9 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

what are some of the more sensible features I should run? Cruise control and traction control?

Ah sure, did your tuner also ask you to install an electronic throttle body and individual wheel speed sensors? 

9 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

Anything else?

If you are going to be as liberal with the anti lag as it seems you are by the description you've given it, just be prepared that your engine and everything hanging off the hot side will become a consumable. 

[Kinkstaah]

See also: "unopened neo engine with 380-400kw"

"Safe" will be determined by how little you use it.

[The Bogan]

Stock engine, read the linky, all 84 odd pages

No point in having all of the powers if you don't have any oil in the sump

At the power levels your looking at she will be a heavy breather

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

10 hours ago, IM-32-FK said:

you are wrong. Factory gtt doesn’t not run a n1 pump.

I might be wrong, however I bought N1 Billet gears from Spool Imports and they went straight into the factory oil pump with my previous motor.

 

[IM-32-FK]

4 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

Cars have been tuned without those sensors fitted for a long long time now. When the car is on the dyno, they put a wideband o2 sensor up the car's but to get the AFR. So you didn't "have' to buy those sensors, you could have taken the car to another tuner

That’s very true, that’s what they do. But my common sense says that since the wideband has a greater range of parameters than a narrowband, and it is much more diverse and comprehensive, then once you tune it and chuck the narrowband back on, the ecu won’t be getting the same values and readouts therefore the car may not run optimally. I might be wrong (probably), I’m not an expert

4 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

Obviously it makes sense to run those sensors though. Did you also install an oil temp and coolant pressure sensor? Those are also sensors that you would run engine protection on. But yeah, do whatever you think is best

I already got an oil temp sensor and gauge but not coolant pressure. I was never told to put one on.

3 hours ago, The Bogan said:

No point in having all of the powers if you don't have any oil in the sump

At the power levels your looking at she will be a heavy breather

I was told by a reputable Melbourne tuner that at that power level their won’t be any issues with oil starvation.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

21 minutes ago, IM-32-FK said:

then once you tune it and chuck the narrowband back on, the ecu won’t be getting the same values and readouts therefore the car may not run optimally. I might be wrong (probably), I’m not an expert

You should always run a wideband, have closed loop fuelling setup as well as lean out protection.

Even a crappy modern Toyota Corolla runs a wideband for precise fuelling, FWIW.

[The Bogan]

1 hour ago, IM-32-FK said:

That’s very true, that’s what they do. But my common sense says that since the wideband has a greater range of parameters than a narrowband, and it is much more diverse and comprehensive, then once you tune it and chuck the narrowband back on, the ecu won’t be getting the same values and readouts therefore the car may not run optimally. I might be wrong (probably), I’m not an expert

I already got an oil temp sensor and gauge but not coolant pressure. I was never told to put one on.

I was told by a reputable Melbourne tuner that at that power level their won’t be any issues with oil starvation.

Maybe not on a dyno

See how it goes on sustained high rpm runs

[Murray_Calavera]

39 minutes ago, IM-32-FK said:

That’s very true, that’s what they do. But my common sense says that since the wideband has a greater range of parameters than a narrowband, and it is much more diverse and comprehensive, then once you tune it and chuck the narrowband back on, the ecu won’t be getting the same values and readouts therefore the car may not run optimally. I might be wrong (probably), I’m not an expert

The sensors protect you against changes. 

If you tune a car properly on a wideband, then remove the wideband, the car should run exactly the same provided the car is operating within the parameters of its tune, and provided nothing fails on the car causing a change in the AFR mixture.

On a properly tuned car, the wideband should only be making very small adjustments to the tune, think 1% or 2%, adjusting for the atmospheric conditions at the time. 

55 minutes ago, IM-32-FK said:

I already got an oil temp sensor and gauge but not coolant pressure. I was never told to put one on.

Well its your car, do you need someone to tell you what to do to it? What would you rather, a blown head gasket or the car to engage its engine protection condition in the event that you start to lift the head? Its like a $130 sensor. Do what you think is best. 

57 minutes ago, IM-32-FK said:

I was told by a reputable Melbourne tuner that at that power level their won’t be any issues with oil starvation.

Power level isn't the primary factor for having oil starvation, the way the car is driven is the primary factor. As an example, if you put some slicks on an otherwise stock skyline and push it round the track, you will 100% have oil starvation issues in high G high speed corners.  

Having big power just makes it easier to achieve the conditions where oil control is an issue. If you just potter around on the streets on slippery tyres, sure you won't have any issues with oil starvation. 

[joshuaho96]

14 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

You should always run a wideband, have closed loop fuelling setup as well as lean out protection.

Even a crappy modern Toyota Corolla runs a wideband for precise fuelling, FWIW.

The issue with retrofitting wideband on these cars is mostly related to control/where it's installed, way too many aftermarket controllers go full blast on the heater the moment the ignition +12V goes live, all kinds of weird calibration bugs, general firmware nightmares, etc. Haltech's recent woes with the NTK wideband comes to mind. Also questionable tuning/maintenance/build practices can all contribute to widebands that die seemingly every year or sooner. For these cars I would probably recommend running both just for the redundancy. At least you can probably trust that your wideband is working ok if the narrowband is cycling around stoich.

[Kinkstaah]

If you put the wideband where the narrowband goes in your exhaust you're just gonna have problems. I've had a couple of 4.2's (Yes, havent needed to upgrade to a 4.9 yet) for a decade and a half and they still work great/calibrated correctly.

Every time I've seen someone have issues it's been sitting in a dump pipe 5cm from the turbine housing, not a meter+ down the exhaust on the correct angle they say to mount them etc etc.

However yes if it is making active adjustments ALL the time in a Wideband closed loop type scenario, it pays to make sure it is calibrated correctly or has some failsafe to stop it trimming your fuel tables into strange, unsafe places.

That said if you want something that compensates perfectly on the fly for temperature changes, or altitude changes......

.......

....consider using a MAF.... like every OEM does.... 😛

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

4 hours ago, joshuaho96 said:

mostly related to control/where it's installed,

Yep, 90% of people have them installed 10cm away from the turbo, hence they all die.

I've only destroyed 1x Haltech sensor in 5x years, this probably died due to me being stupid and hitting the launch antilag constantly when leaving saying bye to people lol.

[Lithium]

I've been seeing all the email notifications for this thread and kinda interesting to see a bunch of tuning chatter.   All seems pretty legit really, just thought I'd meander in and add 2c where it feels like they're not being so redundant. 

The more data you can get the better really, but it doesn't mean it's needed - really a lot of it is personal preference and there are a lot of different people who have different reasoning for different things which can all seem "reasonable".  I find it odd that a tuner would say they wouldn't touch something without a wideband and oil/fuel pressure though, sure both are sensible but realistically he should be able to tune without those... they are just good additional precautions.   

They definitely make the tuning and diagnostic process easier, I guess if he can be that bossy then good on him     I'd still not use the car's wideband for tuning, I prefer to use an external one (like on it's own power source etc) that I know I can trust and then verify the car's wideband against it to make sure everything is working right.  There are plenty of cars that have had widebands installed and potentially even have closed loop running etc off them where they've never been checked and are likely reading off and has potentially the tune isn't doing what people have intended from them.  A lot of variables at play with everything and as always, the more data the better.

It'd be great if everyone had EMAP, EGT, MAF, turbine speed, pre and post intercooler pressure, knock, coolant, oil and fuel pressure, hell cylinder pressure would be nice too  But theres are not NEEDED, but if we pick the right ones for what the car is doing and what fits the budget etc we can do a small subset that ideally ends up just being "nice to have" to help identify issues before they become serious, or help resolve issues after the fact. 

Hell, may be an unpopular opinion but if someone is trying to keep the amount they're spending down but want the car to have some safety then I tend to lean more towards fuel pressure than lambda for safety.  A lot of tune drift and lean out issues seem to come down to fuel delivery, so while monitoring lambda and adjusting or reporting on error is definitely handy - if the tune is dialled in well realistically fuel pressure is often more than capable, potentially better at catching most issues have where a lean out could happen.  I've rarely seen issues where uneven injector flow is the cause of a lean out (and almost any issues I do know of have been due to people using gas injectors, silly idea) and you could have a single injector lean out enough to hurt it's piston but not actually see a massive lean out at the wideband.  Ie, 11.5:1 on 5 cylinders and 13:1 on #6 = an average of 11.75, a closed loop correction on that will make 5 cylinders a bit rich and the 6th one still lean and simply mask an issue and I'm not sure if most people would do an engine protection on .25 off target AFR.

Another issue with relying primarily on closed loop is that exhaust leaks and misfires can set it off into weird places.   A decent exhaust leak will set closed loop off dumping a heap of fuel into an engine that doesn't need it (though monitoring trims will help pick up on these things so it IS a handy diagnostic) and things can get pretty weird if you get a misfire on a cylinder, closed loop can start trying to throw heaps of fuel at the thing and make the whole engine run like shit and make it hard to immediately work out that it all started on a single cylinder losing spark and adding to the mess by fouling all the plugs. 

With fuel pressure being the "main guy" the overall fuel model tends to be more accurate if set up correctly, and it can also step in if you start getting a pressure drop - both bumping up injector open time to compensate for would otherwise be a brief lean out, or going into engine protection before a lean out ever happens... while lambda based safety tends to rely on the engine already leaning out (and probably way too much) before doing anything about it.   I'm far from saying having O2 feedback is not worth it at all, just throwing other things into the discussion.  The more data the better, but data definitely needs context to be used optimally.

Now that I've mentioned misfires, another thing that surprisingly I've not noticed mention of so far is knock sensors, whether or not you use actual knock control.  That's another thing that potentially will pick up on dangerous operating condition as quickly as a wideband will (not that you want to wait for it to reach that point), with the added advantage of being able to use windowing to identify which cylinder is responsible.   Another neat thing about using windowed knock monitoring is a car I was involved with had fuel pressure, knock logging, lambda etc and it dropped a cylinder in a run.   Lambda went lean on a bank, fuel pressure was fine, and the noise from the knock sensor during one cylinder's "turn" dropped way off compared to the rest.   Replaced the coil on that cylinder, was running on all cylinders again and life was good.  Without that range of sensors and the ability to make sense of what they were doing that whole diagnostic process could have been a much bigger headfk.

< Misfire log

On 15/08/2023 at 10:21 AM, Kinkstaah said:

....consider using a MAF.... like every OEM does.... 😛

Not trying to be a dick, I actually rate using a MAF if it's an option - they're pretty cool for the reasons you've implied... only reason I'm contradicting you is there is more "interesting stuff" (well I find it interesting) in the details that contradict you there.   

Porsche, Ford and BMW (and others) don't use MAF for load reference on a lot of their current high end cars.  Some of them even still have a MAF sensor but it's more for diagnostics and other general control stuff, as earlier - more data is always good even if you're not relying on it.   Speed density tuning has often been considered less accurate but these days with more understanding, better sensors and better processing hardware it's damn hard to beat and also ties into load based tuning very very well as part of the calibration process you effectively are building a reference table of how the cylinders are filled under given conditions without needing to hit them, which means you can basically forecast what you need to give the engine to make x amount of torque before the fact and then hit that torque level very quickly.

This is particularly relevant to BMW and Porsche (the ones I know off hand at least) that don't actually use a traditional speed density setup where you have VE numbers in a MAP x RPM look up table, but they use a combination of boost pressure, throttle angle (and data on what the throttle's volumetric flow is at different angles), and MAP to calculate engine load/torque, either before or after the fact.   This means that they're able to demand a target boost and throttle position to hit a torque target with less messing around than you could hope to with a conventional speed density setup, let alone with a MAF based system.   The accuracy of the load calculation is very on point, way more responsive and accurate in transient load conditions and again - you can "plan ahead" in terms of controlling throttle and boost to hit precise torque targets very quickly.    If you've ever wondered how current generation Porkers are so ridiculously consistent and controlled with power delivery, that's absolutely part of it.

In terms of the grid of buttons, I don't have a lot of suggestions.  I think most of the time it seems nice to have but if you're struggling to think of things to use them for then you probably don't need to set them up right now.  The ones mentioned make sense enough (as much as pops & bangs etc make me cringe and feel for the hardware). 

I'd consider setting up a boost control mode that is effectively a torque limit per gear setup where you kinda have your cake and eat it too boost wise.   When I've tuned >500whp stock gearbox GTSts I've given them reduced power in first and second, third gear I hold a peak torque level that is maybe adventurous but not suicide - but hold that torque to redline (so you still make decent power) and send them to the moon in 4th upwards.   I personally reckon it's a really nice way boost targetting setup for RWD Skylines for various reasons, they don't really feel super held back but also are easier to drive fast and without breaking things.   So I guess you could have a "valet mode", a "fast but under control" mode, and a "dumb cnut" mode where you send it to the moon in every gear and situation.  

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text - thought I'd throw some of that into the yarns... hope it's not TL;DR or too off topic
  Be interesting to see where you end up with it.