R33 GTR Rebuild + Upgrading

[joshuaho96]

2 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Well, technically that is Super-HICAS.

Good point, I forget Nissan distinguishes all of these things with weird subtle naming differences. Isn't the R32 also technically Super HICAS though? 

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, joshuaho96 said:

Good point, I forget Nissan distinguishes all of these things with weird subtle naming differences. Isn't the R32 also technically Super HICAS though? 

Nah. R32 is "shit HICAS". The R33 would be better described as slightly "less shit but still very shit HICAS" and the R34 could be described as "you had a chance to actually make this shit good but you missed it shit HICAS".

[joshuaho96]

15 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Nah. R32 is "shit HICAS". The R33 would be better described as slightly "less shit but still very shit HICAS" and the R34 could be described as "you had a chance to actually make this shit good but you missed it shit HICAS".

The best part is that Nissan doubled down on it with 4WAS in the V35/V36 Skylines which actually also took away control of the front wheels from you as well to fix some weird issue they had with only steering the rear axle.

[r32-25t]

All hicas goes in the bin

[MBS206]

I gotta say, years ago in my R33, I was fine with the HICAS. Once it was back up at standard ride height that is.

 

But, what was described where you'd throw it in, it'd help tip it in, and you'd feel like you've tipped in too much. I learned you have to be prepared to commit, you need to know it's going to do it, and then you could drive through hard with it.

 

My thoughts on it were, while it could help make a shit driver make the turn,  shit driver would still be slow as they themselves would be sawing at the wheel thinking they've tipped in too far, hence they're fighting HICAS. Kind of like the GTR drivers you see have the rear end come start to come out, so they drive it like a RWD, and not an ATTESSA fitted vehicle that needed you to commit and let the system work.

 

As for why is it not used in racing? There would be a lot more reasons than just "it's shit".

Part being much higher wear and tear from racing, and being controlled pretty openly by a computer, unlike wear/movement you can get in a front rack the driver is the feedback loop.

Improving reliability of the car if you take a bump in the back by being able to beef the rear end up a little.

Weight, especially in the R32.

Heat, (in the R32).

Simplifying repairs.

Simplifying setting up and tuning the suspension at each track. Now you've really gotta look at some form of caster in the rear, and understand that because the rear wheels can now pivot on the contact patch, you've introduced a completely new realm for how the tyre will cycle in the suspension.

Look at it on the front, as you cycle the suspension up and down, and look at the contact patch changing, now do that same cycle as you're turning the steering wheel. Adds a whole new level of complexity.

Add in again, drivers not being used to it at all as it's new tech.

Look at the old crazy turbo cars that were laggy and then hit like a sledge hammer, circuit guys took time to learn how to drive them.

 

Hence, because of lots of reasons, it can be easier to just ditch it, especially if it's not gaining you THAT much extra on the track, vs something like learning your way around an extra 200hp from a laggy turbo.

 

Oh, also, lastly, it could potentially be regulations too.

[GTSBoy]

I've explained why HICAS existed many times in the past, so won't repeat here. But suffice to say that it was a way to make a completely vanilla street car chassis feel sporty and chuckable. And it did exactly that. Up until you either tried to drive it harder than the Nissan engineers expected anyone to drive it, or it developed a fault that led to it losing its mind and trying to kill you.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

5 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

it losing its mind and trying to kill you.

Yep, exactly what happened to a mate of mine. R33 GT-R split and he woke up in ICU.

 

[joshuaho96]

6 hours ago, MBS206 said:

I gotta say, years ago in my R33, I was fine with the HICAS. Once it was back up at standard ride height that is.

 

But, what was described where you'd throw it in, it'd help tip it in, and you'd feel like you've tipped in too much. I learned you have to be prepared to commit, you need to know it's going to do it, and then you could drive through hard with it.

 

My thoughts on it were, while it could help make a shit driver make the turn,  shit driver would still be slow as they themselves would be sawing at the wheel thinking they've tipped in too far, hence they're fighting HICAS. Kind of like the GTR drivers you see have the rear end come start to come out, so they drive it like a RWD, and not an ATTESSA fitted vehicle that needed you to commit and let the system work.

 

As for why is it not used in racing? There would be a lot more reasons than just "it's shit".

Part being much higher wear and tear from racing, and being controlled pretty openly by a computer, unlike wear/movement you can get in a front rack the driver is the feedback loop.

Improving reliability of the car if you take a bump in the back by being able to beef the rear end up a little.

Weight, especially in the R32.

Heat, (in the R32).

Simplifying repairs.

Simplifying setting up and tuning the suspension at each track. Now you've really gotta look at some form of caster in the rear, and understand that because the rear wheels can now pivot on the contact patch, you've introduced a completely new realm for how the tyre will cycle in the suspension.

Look at it on the front, as you cycle the suspension up and down, and look at the contact patch changing, now do that same cycle as you're turning the steering wheel. Adds a whole new level of complexity.

Add in again, drivers not being used to it at all as it's new tech.

Look at the old crazy turbo cars that were laggy and then hit like a sledge hammer, circuit guys took time to learn how to drive them.

 

Hence, because of lots of reasons, it can be easier to just ditch it, especially if it's not gaining you THAT much extra on the track, vs something like learning your way around an extra 200hp from a laggy turbo.

 

Oh, also, lastly, it could potentially be regulations too.

I doubt it's a lack of knowledge/technology at this point keeping rear axle steering out of racing. Porsche has pretty well figured it all out at this point to the extent that nobody recommends disabling it on track. It also helps that they figured out how to predict the exact problem that people complain about, the HICAS "fighting" them at the limit. The closer you get to the limit of traction in a Porsche the more it attenuates the rear axle steer so there's no strange feeling when you try to drift it.

Also, Porsche owners are just way more obsessive. R32/R33 GTRs prior to Americans hyping them up to be the second coming were mostly abused by Canadians too cheap to do anything the right way as winter beaters because they had AWD.

I would also consider pulling out all the major electrical modules at this point and checking for dead capacitors in basically anything that can be opened up safely. HICAS just doesn't have that many protections. If anything in the chain from the suspension/steering rack to sensors to the controller logic board is faulty it can absolutely do surprising things that can be downright dangerous. I already had every last bushing and ball joint replaced but I still wonder if I need to crack open the HICAS CU and yaw sensor to replace all the electrolytic caps.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 hours ago, joshuaho96 said:

if I need to crack open the HICAS CU and yaw sensor to replace all the electrolytic caps.

Cheaper and better (odd those two words are in the same sentence) to bin the HICAS system.

[joshuaho96]

1 minute ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Cheaper and better (odd those two words are in the same sentence) to bin the HICAS system.

This is true, but the threat of the HICAS system sending me off the road is half the fun on these cars. It's kind of like people buying really old iPhones. They're just garbage in every way but for some reason new in box iPhone 2Gs are selling for 40k USD these days.

Edited September 11, 2023 by joshuaho96

[GTSBoy]

13 hours ago, joshuaho96 said:

This is true, but the threat of the HICAS system sending me off the road is half the fun on these cars. It's kind of like people buying really old iPhones. They're just garbage in every way but for some reason new in box iPhone 2Gs are selling for 40k USD these days.

See, that's a problem right there. iPhone people are weird and disordered. Please do not link us with that community.

[niZmO_Man]

On 11/09/2023 at 5:30 PM, joshuaho96 said:

This is true, but the threat of the HICAS system sending me off the road is half the fun on these cars. It's kind of like people buying really old iPhones. They're just garbage in every way but for some reason new in box iPhone 2Gs are selling for 40k USD these days.

Only people buying are drug dealers or kids who made loads of money in shitcoins.

There's a reason Gibson Motorsport ditched the entire thing and engineered replacement arms/braces.

Porsche only recently started offering it because it's a money maker.

[joshuaho96]

7 hours ago, niZmO_Man said:

Only people buying are drug dealers or kids who made loads of money in shitcoins.

There's a reason Gibson Motorsport ditched the entire thing and engineered replacement arms/braces.

Porsche only recently started offering it because it's a money maker.

Porsche's system actually works well though. In the 991 generation especially people raved about how much of a difference it made.

[Duncan]

I have to say.....80s Nissan engineers were still extraordinary (and so were the accountants for letting them do it), even if one of the cutting edge techs has not stood the test of time. 

You just have to look at how the larger Toyota failed in the performance space (other than making a better inline 6 engine) at the same time, or Honda's NSX or Mitsu's GTO.....

[GTSBoy]

Yeah, they just didn't have enough processing power, or history/experience, to make a system that was truly fit for purpose.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

to make a system that was truly fit for purpose.

Imagine they put a twin scroll, single turbo onto the GT-R.

(Waits for all the Muricannnns to say twin turbos are better and that putting on 3" exhaust systems for back pressure adds response).

[r32-25t]

1 hour ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Imagine they put a twin scroll, single turbo onto the GT-R.

(Waits for all the Muricannnns to say twin turbos are better and that putting on 3" exhaust systems for back pressure adds response).

And power 

[joshuaho96]

On 9/15/2023 at 8:02 PM, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Imagine they put a twin scroll, single turbo onto the GT-R.

(Waits for all the Muricannnns to say twin turbos are better and that putting on 3" exhaust systems for back pressure adds response).

I thought the whole point of the twin turbos was that they didn't have a single twin scroll turbo readily available when it was designed in the 80s and Nissan was too broke in the 90s to contemplate actually fixing anything wrong with the RB26 anyways. But hey, for a cool 1.6 million JPY you can buy the HKS intake which supposedly fixes most of the problems: https://www.hks-power.co.jp/product_db/intake/db/70029-AN001_EN.pdf

[Duncan]

Absolutely, turbos had a heap more lag back then, the big aftermarket twins of the 90/00s are pretty bad. Mitsu and nissan went small twins, mazda and toyota went small/large sequentials to try and improve it. You'd have to drive a factory Exa or Cordia Turbo to remember the full lag/whoosh 80s experience. I have to run factory plain bearing N1 turbos for racing and they get full (boost 12psi) around 4,500

Good to see HKS doing R&D on the twin setup and providing some explanation, not sure if aftermarket pipes will work for the purity crowd though.