Fake ARP bolts?

[GTSBoy]

Hi Gents,

Someone I know (experienced engine builder) built an engine. It had some chinesium rods that came with ARP 2000 bolts. One failed on the dyno, destroyed the whole thing. The only possibilities are:

• Installation error. Possible, but we should discount it almost 100% because he knows what he's doing. He doesn't discount it that much, because he's being hard on himself.
• QC/QA problems with ARP products. I'd like to discount this, but I have heard a number of stories about similar failures, and stories of some builders buying 2 sets of everything, x-raying everything, and picking only those bolts that they are completely happy with. This behaviour coming from anecdotal stories of ~1% failure rates. 1% of all rod bolts failing would be about 1000x higher than I would expect to be anywhere near tolerable. If I were ARP I certainly wouldn't even be selling the product if they were dying at that rate (for non-installation error reasons). So, I would prefer to discount that possibility too.
• Fakes. Specifically, fakes being sold bundled with cheap rods sets from CCP factory B in Shenzen, or wherever the stuff is being made this week.

So the question here is, does anyone else have some horror stories that would point to fakes being circulated in this manner?

[The Bogan]

Heaps of historical info on this, a quick Google gave dates back to 2012, all talk about identification markings, dimples, shapes of mounting surfaces, washers, that are concave or something to match the fasteners mounting surface, which ARP states that if the washer, if it uses a washer in its application, isn't the right way around, it can cause premature failure,  even if it was torqued up correctly with whatever lube is meant to be used

There is even talk about getting the bolts Xrayed to check the structure, one was about some builder getting multiple sets of bolts, having them Xrayed, and picking from those results

Nowadays identical "looking" fake parts, in identical looking fake packaging are everywhere, with all the markings and stuff, the only way you know they are not legit is Xray or when they fail

I assume if you don't want fake parts, and don't have a Xray machine handy, is to get them directly from ARP in the USofA, aftermarket rod and head bolts aren't something to take for granted 

Imagine building a big dollar build only to find you lunch it because of an inferior fake fixture let go 😫

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, The Bogan said:

Imagine building a big dollar build only to find you lunch it because of an inferior fake fixture let go 😫

Yes. This engine cost a very large amount of money to build. It's a Frankenstein necessitating lots of custom parts and lots of fabrication and fettling to get things like big ends to clear the bottom of the bore, etc etc. The rods and bolts were supplied by the owner. Hence why the rods were Chinesium. Some lessons need to be learned the (very, very) hard way, apparently.

I was aware of the stories going back about that far as well. I just wanted to see if the reality was as bad as the fear.

[MBS206]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

Yes. This engine cost a very large amount of money to build. It's a Frankenstein necessitating lots of custom parts and lots of fabrication and fettling to get things like big ends to clear the bottom of the bore, etc etc. The rods and bolts were supplied by the owner. Hence why the rods were Chinesium. Some lessons need to be learned the (very, very) hard way, apparently.

I was aware of the stories going back about that far as well. I just wanted to see if the reality was as bad as the fear.

My guess is, cheap rods, came from a site selling lots of cheap things, and likely a lot of knock off stuff.

 

I get doing a cheap build, but I don't get doing a huge dollar build, and then skimping on something even like the rods, and likely the bolts to go with it, especially if heaps of stuff had to be fabricated!

[soviet_merlin]

I wonder if there is much to tell without knowing where the bolts where bought from.

If it comes from Amazon or similar all bets are off. Can't trust them. And I fear not everybody knows that.

Wasn't it @TurboTapin who ended up with the fake fuel lines recently? The submersible ones which very much weren't submersible at all.

It kind of applies to everything nowadays. Doesn't matter if it's hardware or electronics. The fancy camera might have internals swapped out for cheap knockoffs. The hard drive will report a certain size but not actually be able to write it all. Shit like that.

A bit depressing but the reality is you really have to be weary of where and how you buy stuff

[TurboTapin]

8 hours ago, soviet_merlin said:

I wonder if there is much to tell without knowing where the bolts where bought from.

If it comes from Amazon or similar all bets are off. Can't trust them. And I fear not everybody knows that.

Wasn't it @TurboTapin who ended up with the fake fuel lines recently? The submersible ones which very much weren't submersible at all.

It kind of applies to everything nowadays. Doesn't matter if it's hardware or electronics. The fancy camera might have internals swapped out for cheap knockoffs. The hard drive will report a certain size but not actually be able to write it all. Shit like that.

A bit depressing but the reality is you really have to be weary of where and how you buy stuff

Yes sir, that was me. Fake ARP's are also a thing over here in Canada and we only order from reputable dealers. It's sad that even simple things like bolts and hoses are now also being copied... anything to make a dollar. 

Story time. Like all cheap crap from China, it's even an issue with firearms. Roughly 15 years ago, I purchased a new cheap Norinco 12g shotgun. First time out in the bush with it, while firing, bolt assembly didn't lock and it fired out of battery. The receiver also being cheap steel, basically exploded in my face. I was lucky to be wearing eye protection. Long story short, don't buy Chinese junk. Also Norinco being state run and their only military arms producer, if ever they do try and take over a country, don't worry about it lol. 

Edited October 4 by TurboTapin

[GTSBoy]

On 05/10/2024 at 4:00 AM, TurboTapin said:

Also Norinco being state run and their only military arms producer, if ever they do try and take over a country, don't worry about it lol. 

Well, maybe not. The main feature of Chinese manufacture seems to be incredibly variable quality, coupled with an apparent willingness to find a way to sell even the stuff that fails QC. So the military could still take the cream of the production run and somehow sell the "sellable but not really useable" stuff to the stupid round eyes on the other side of the world.

Edited October 8 by Duncan
typo

[hardsteppa]

In my experience with maxspeed rods, it was not that the ARP rod bolts were "fake" but they are made under licence from ARP, rather than made directly by ARP. Not the same thing and quite likely to have more quality variations, let's be realistic. I haven't had any issues with mine. 

I daresay look hard enough, there would be some failures of genuine ARP products too though? Even if very few.

[GTSBoy]

10 minutes ago, hardsteppa said:

I daresay look hard enough, there would be some failures of genuine ARP products too though? Even if very few.

Oh no. There's heaps. A whole lot of them are legitimately handling/installation problems. The material used in the L19 bolts is susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement and must be kept well oiled and not handled without gloves, etc etc. There have been many failures of these from people who didn't realise. There may also have been failures caused by conditions inside the engine (say, head gasket failures?) and people didn't realise that that was probably a death warrant. But that's the L19 material. The ARP 2000s are not made of the same stuff and are more forgiving. But from what I gather there have been occasions where the head has pulled off of one, and non-one can say that the installation was at fault (given good torque records), etc etc, but maybe just maybe the face of the rod shoulder where the bolt head sits wasn't actually perfectly square to the bore of the hole...and loaded up the head with a torque across it and.... ping! I've head stories of bolt heads being found in corners of workshops or in the bottom of sumps even without starting and running the engine!

Trouble is, it is really hard to sort the true material failures from the handling/installation failures. It's worse than human medicine. You can only run the experiment once, and you can't run it backwards in time to look at the rod before it became a modern sculpture.

[Butters]

This was a fun watch