Hello friends

[Nick0]

Hi, I'm a new member who has been lurking for a while.

Ive been looking to buy an R32, 33 or 34. GTT/GTST for some time now.

I'm close to pulling the pin on one,.

My question is around roadworthy certificates in Victoria.

What can you get away with as far as mods go? 

Would a car pass RWC with a haltech dash, aftermarket manifold and high mount turbo as long as ride height and noise was ok?

I come from a muscle car background, I'm learning more about our beloved Skylines as I go.

I don't want to drop my savings on something to find out I need thousands to get it on the road.

Cheers for any input/advice.

 

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, Nick0 said:

aftermarket manifold and high mount turbo

Almost certainly no. In Vic they have this crazily restrictive set of rules for mods that is usually interpreted as "no more than 2 modifications to the intake system". And they're not real hot on upgraded turbos at all, let alone high mounts.

That means if you fit a bigger (particularly front mount) intercooler (which is, of course, almost impossible to go without) then you're already down to one other mod allowed.

You'll really benefit from hearing from someone from Vic who knows the real state of play. Even better, speak to an automotive mods certifying engineer from Vic. You can actually read the rules from the govco websites yourself, too.

[Kinkstaah]

4 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Almost certainly no. In Vic they have this crazily restrictive set of rules for mods that is usually interpreted as "no more than 2 modifications to the intake system". And they're not real hot on upgraded turbos at all, let alone high mounts.

It's not "interpreted as" it literally is no more than 1 mod to the intake system.

The turbo is considered something that affects emissions. So this has 0.0% chance of passing it's current state. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this would absolutely need thousands to get on the road. Perhaps the seller still has the stock bits, but god knows what state the OEM wiring is to run the ECU, whether an OEM cluster is still available, etc.

Generally speaking, RWC testers in Victoria are more conservative than the rules actually are to boot, so even if the car will pass, they won't even want to look at it, nor consult the actual roadworthiness requirements. They will simply throw it in the too hard basket with a flavor of arrogance and move onto the next job, even if the mods you have meet the requirements of VSI14.

[soviet_merlin]

How do people sell and buy modified cars in Victoria? Because internet says you have to get a RWC every time the car is sold.

In NSW the blue slip / full check is only required for cars that had their registration lapsed or are bought from interstate. The yearly pink slip / rego check just looks at tyres, lights, leaks and things like that. They tend to not care about modifications. So can buy a car that is modified as long as it was registered before modifications. And then keep driving it. With the lingering threat of getting defected and fu<ked at any time.

[The Bogan]

21 minutes ago, soviet_merlin said:

How do people sell and buy modified cars in Victoria? Because internet says you have to get a RWC every time the car is sold.

In NSW the blue slip / full check is only required for cars that had their registration lapsed or are bought from interstate. The yearly pink slip / rego check just looks at tyres, lights, leaks and things like that. They tend to not care about modifications. So can buy a car that is modified as long as it was registered before modifications. And then keep driving it. With the lingering threat of getting defected and fu<ked at any time.

Maybe the same way that everyone in NSW with modifications gets a slip

By rights, the inspector is "meant" to check for "non-compliant" modifications

Occasionally, but rarely, a inspector will get busted for passing off cars that don't comply, but this is hard to enforce as the inspector can just say, "it was standard when I inspected it"

They occasionally create "task groups" and "stings" for this, but mainly they just roll out and establish roadside inspection stations, or, the police are tasked to just drive around and give out canaries to the usual suspects 

This is typically why only people who drive around with a large "heat signature" get pinned, because they make themselves a easy target for inspection stations and the Hwy Patrol

 

[The Bogan]

This is more of a concern in my opinion 

Shops have already been fined for selling stuff, not only that, the shops were required to submit their books, so that the people purchasing these parts, or the work they had done, could be found and possibly prosecuted 

Apparently "For Motorsport use only" isn't a free pass

This has been happening in the US for a while now, I wonder how long it takes before AU is hit with similar investigations and fines start to flow out

Basically all aftermarket ECU's or tunes,  and lots of parts, could be put into this category of "non-compliance"

 

[Nick0]

So it's even worse than I thought.

I may have to source something that still has stock parts.

Thanks for the replies, Gents. Plenty of food for thought.

[luke gtr]

22 hours ago, The Bogan said:

This is more of a concern in my opinion 

Shops have already been fined for selling stuff, not only that, the shops were required to submit their books, so that the people purchasing these parts, or the work they had done, could be found and possibly prosecuted 

Apparently "For Motorsport use only" isn't a free pass

This has been happening in the US for a while now, I wonder how long it takes before AU is hit with similar investigations and fines start to flow out

Basically all aftermarket ECU's or tunes,  and lots of parts, could be put into this category of "non-compliance"

 

Interesting post(haven't watched the vid).

I'm surprised companies can be fined for selling products that are specifically meant for certain applications. 

How can you force a customer to use or apply your products in 100% the way intended?

People have been misusing products since they were invented. Heck, I ate dessert last night with a soup spoon. Does that mean the spoon manufacturer could be fined?

And what of the customers who actually want to use the product for its intended use?

 

I'm sure we could discuss and debate this for a while, but this is an introduction thread and I dont mean to take over it.

[Kinkstaah]

You have to take photos of the car in Victoria with a timestamp. So if you have big aftermarket turbo in your engine bay, your car is simply not getting a RWC and you'll be doing a lot of returning to stock, and re-modding after about 90 days (because cars that have had a RWC can be audited after the fact).

The law I'm kinda ambivalent about. I can see the logic and the writing on the wall, Cobb etc would be well known for selling to 'wink wink off the street usage' but in the real world everyone knows what they do and where they end up. It'd be like someone selling guns in Australia but "only to people who have a proper licence" but selling them outside of Bunnings instead of sausages to anybody.

Like RWC's, and VASS's and EPA, this is enforcement of the actual existing rules. I haven't looked into it but there (should) be a way for people to legally pass their tuned car to be within the rules if they can prove they pass emissions laws that are applicable. If there's not then that's another story.

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, luke gtr said:

I'm surprised companies can be fined for selling products that are specifically meant for certain applications.

How can you force a customer to use or apply your products in 100% the way intended?

There's a difference between "selling" a product to someone (which, if you walked into a workshop or bricks and mortar store and bought and walked out with it, is just the act of buying and selling) and rolling your buggy into a workshop and having them fit non-roadworthy stuff to the car. And for the latter, let's ignore any potential legal loophole arguments that the armchair lawyer might want to make to differentiate between supplying your own parts to be fit by the workshop or getting the shop to supply and fit.

The workshops that have been dealt with in the US for this are in the latter category. It would be near impossible to try to charge/attack/criminalise a shop for selling "for off road use only" parts to someone unless those things were intrinsically illegal in their own right, or had other legislation wrapped around them, such as there is for guns, pharmaceuticals, etc.

1 hour ago, luke gtr said:

Heck, I ate dessert last night with a soup spoon. Does that mean the spoon manufacturer could be fined?

Well, no. And you knew your argument was silly when you made it.

1 hour ago, Kinkstaah said:

I haven't looked into it but there (should) be a way for people to legally pass their tuned car to be within the rules if they can prove they pass emissions laws that are applicable.

And there is. it might be somewhat harder in Vic, but then that's the price you pay for electing the long list of (unts that you have to run the whole shit hole**. But otherwise, you can put an aftermarket or otherwise tunable ECU into a car and get it run through the whole shebang of emissions testing as part of an engineering cert and, so long as the tune is "locked" afterwards, then that modification is on the list that is approved on the cert. But....it is an expensive process.

** Of course, the (unts who make up a large proportion of the population that eternally try to get around the rules are also a part of the problem and the reason that you end up with draconian rules in the first place. By contrast, SA was founded and the government and civil service set up and run by very sensible types (largely German) who set up good structures that enabled a lighter touch of government on the somewhat better behaved population. it is only more recently that we have followed the rest of Australia down the criminal drainhole of penal colony behaviour and now we have to catch up with mobile phone cameras and so on.

 

[The Bogan]

2 hours ago, luke gtr said:

Interesting post(haven't watched the vid).

I'm surprised companies can be fined for selling products that are specifically meant for certain applications. 

How can you force a customer to use or apply your products in 100% the way intended?

People have been misusing products since they were invented. Heck, I ate dessert last night with a soup spoon. Does that mean the spoon manufacturer could be fined?

And what of the customers who actually want to use the product for its intended use?

 

I'm sure we could discuss and debate this for a while, but this is an introduction thread and I dont mean to take over it.

There's no current law that stipulates that you cannot eat dessert with a soup spoon, although, it is socially unacceptable of course, shame on you

But, there are emissions laws, which is sort of on topic to the OP's questions

Things like emissions are, if anything, going to get stricter in the future for road registered cars I believe, 'Merica has yearly emisions testing in some states, the UK has it's yearly MOT testing as well which includes emissions

Building, and purchasing modified vehicles may become alot more problematic if you want to keep them registered, how, if, and when each state handles this is anyone's guess 

More food for thought really

[luke gtr]

On 08/12/2024 at 1:37 PM, The Bogan said:

There's no current law that stipulates that you cannot eat dessert with a soup spoon, although, it is socially unacceptable of course, shame on you

But, there are emissions laws, which is sort of on topic to the OP's questions

Things like emissions are, if anything, going to get stricter in the future for road registered cars I believe, 'Merica has yearly emisions testing in some states, the UK has it's yearly MOT testing as well which includes emissions

Building, and purchasing modified vehicles may become alot more problematic if you want to keep them registered, how, if, and when each state handles this is anyone's guess 

More food for thought really

While there is no current law for the spoon, let's swap to a different utensil.

Example, does the store get fined for selling a butter knife if it ends up being a murder weapon? Perhaps they cpuld be done for assisting if they *knew* it was going to be for such a purpose.

But, if used properly, which was its primary design, it's a tool for a job that's legal.

I could understand companies being prosecuted if they advertise their products for being road legal if they in fact, are not. Possibly, but not necessarily, the tuners for tuning a car to a non legal fashion(emissions), but there is always the possibility that the customer really doesn't intend to use the car, in that configuration, on the road. So long as the companies can prove they have conveyed how illegal it is to use the now illegal car, in a place where the vehicle must meet the laws, they shouldn't be punished.

Not sure about other countries or states, but I've been made aware that I can't legally stop a client from taking and driving their own car in NSW, Australia, even if they owe the shop money. It must go through court to get the funds from the customer, and you need to get the police or roads covering body representatives to come and stop the owner from driving the car, even if I know how hazardous the vehicle is.

[The Bogan]

9 hours ago, luke gtr said:

While there is no current law for the spoon, let's swap to a different utensil.

Example, does the store get fined for selling a butter knife if it ends up being a murder weapon? Perhaps they cpuld be done for assisting if they *knew* it was going to be for such a purpose.

But, if used properly, which was its primary design, it's a tool for a job that's legal.

I could understand companies being prosecuted if they advertise their products for being road legal if they in fact, are not. Possibly, but not necessarily, the tuners for tuning a car to a non legal fashion(emissions), but there is always the possibility that the customer really doesn't intend to use the car, in that configuration, on the road. So long as the companies can prove they have conveyed how illegal it is to use the now illegal car, in a place where the vehicle must meet the laws, they shouldn't be punished.

Not sure about other countries or states, but I've been made aware that I can't legally stop a client from taking and driving their own car in NSW, Australia, even if they owe the shop money. It must go through court to get the funds from the customer, and you need to get the police or roads covering body representatives to come and stop the owner from driving the car, even if I know how hazardous the vehicle is.

It's all about selling non-compliant emmisions stuff, and things like tuning stuff that makes your car have more emmisions, a very small percentage of modifications and tuning go into race cars, the vast majority of tuning and mods, like catless exhausts, or non-compliant cats, go into street cars with registration 

Like a gun shop can only sell to someone with a gun licence, if they don't, they are fined and even jailed, and whilst a gun is totally different to a tune, or a catless exhaust, they are still illegal for a street car

As for customers, it easy, they send a letter and tell them to show up for an inspection, like if someone says your car is to loud now, if they don't show up for the test, they can cancel rego, just like not paying a traffic fine

This has been happening for years overseas in other countries 

I'm in no way happy about it, but, I think there is definitely writing on the wall for modern cars with emissions standards, which will effect tuning shops, parts suppliers and end users

And like other countries around the world, it is the government's that makes the rules and regulations for street cars with rego

What would happen to a tuner or workshop if they were investigated about turning off stuff in a ECU IRT emmisions stuff like engine check lights for cats, or removing cats, or putting in a lower cell cat, this is apparently all illegal IAW modifications to registered cars, or, retuning the car so that with even stock emmision stuff still installed, but due to the tuning, or parts, like bigger cam shafts, it will now not pass the emmisions test

Yes, I am going into a rabbit hole, but going off what other countries are doing IRT everything related to emmisions........cars, trucks, manufacturing, mining, modified vehicles are a easy target

Meh, time will tell how it goes either way 

[joshuaho96]

On 12/7/2024 at 5:31 PM, GTSBoy said:

There's a difference between "selling" a product to someone (which, if you walked into a workshop or bricks and mortar store and bought and walked out with it, is just the act of buying and selling) and rolling your buggy into a workshop and having them fit non-roadworthy stuff to the car. And for the latter, let's ignore any potential legal loophole arguments that the armchair lawyer might want to make to differentiate between supplying your own parts to be fit by the workshop or getting the shop to supply and fit.

The workshops that have been dealt with in the US for this are in the latter category. It would be near impossible to try to charge/attack/criminalise a shop for selling "for off road use only" parts to someone unless those things were intrinsically illegal in their own right, or had other legislation wrapped around them, such as there is for guns, pharmaceuticals, etc.

Well, no. And you knew your argument was silly when you made it.

And there is. it might be somewhat harder in Vic, but then that's the price you pay for electing the long list of (unts that you have to run the whole shit hole**. But otherwise, you can put an aftermarket or otherwise tunable ECU into a car and get it run through the whole shebang of emissions testing as part of an engineering cert and, so long as the tune is "locked" afterwards, then that modification is on the list that is approved on the cert. But....it is an expensive process.

** Of course, the (unts who make up a large proportion of the population that eternally try to get around the rules are also a part of the problem and the reason that you end up with draconian rules in the first place. By contrast, SA was founded and the government and civil service set up and run by very sensible types (largely German) who set up good structures that enabled a lighter touch of government on the somewhat better behaved population. it is only more recently that we have followed the rest of Australia down the criminal drainhole of penal colony behaviour and now we have to catch up with mobile phone cameras and so on.

 

In the US the EPA has been going after shops that sold aftermarket ECU tuning software that allowed you to disable CELs for things like EGR, DPF, SCR, or TWC failure. They also went after shops for selling emissions delete equipment. Their logic is that all cars built for street use have this emissions equipment and you cannot do an after the fact conversion to an off-road vehicle not intended for street use. Cobb, Hondata, and similar companies have basically all revised their tuning software such that going forward you cannot suppress DTCs for emissions-critical systems, nor can you toggle systems on and off in the tune like EGR. You also cannot adjust OBD emissions monitoring logic. You can still tune these cars. But you have to do things the hard way, basically. For example Subaru FA20DITs used to delete the TGV system to get spare analog IO for a flex fuel sensor. EGR also has to be dramatically pared back because without the TGVs the stock EGR map causes bad misfires. Now instead they have to implement the flex fuel system as a CAN bus sensor instead.

IMO, this is heavy-handed but the EPA in the US gave so much leeway for so long and the aftermarket relentlessly abused that leeway to the point that they could actually see the effects of all these emissions-deleted work trucks on their air quality monitoring for cities that haven't met Clean Air Act standards. It's one thing to have a few people deleting emissions on their weekend car that spends 9 months out of the year on jack stands. It's another thing entirely for entire fleets of tradies driving around 8 hours a day on deleted diesels that emit 1000x the emissions per mile of a compliant vehicle.