How "plug and play" is the Haltech Pro for R33 GTST

[joshuaho96]

On 12/26/2024 at 12:13 AM, Murray_Calavera said:

I have questions - 

* what are you using to detect knock? 

* do you have knock ears or any other way to listen to knock? 

* your driving a R33 yeah? what are the knock sensors your running, factory is the old school style yeah? Do you have modern bosch knock sensors? 

* have you deliberately induced knock to see what it looks like on your ECU/knock monitor and listened to it to hear what it sounds like? 

1. Factory knock sensors for now, honestly the RB26 OEM knock sensors seem ok as they're flat response instead of resonant type but they appear to be internally grounded to the block. If I do replace the sensor it would just be to get ones that are not internally grounded so a differential input can be used to reject common mode noise. Definitely plan on fixing this as a part of the tuning process.

2. Never deliberately induced knock, though I guess I could try that experiment if I really wanted to.

3. All of this is basically on a stock engine + ECU, only modification is HKS GTIII-SS turbos and a Nismo plenum. Currently I run it with the wastegate solenoid unplugged so it won't try to raise boost past wastegate pressure.

Edited December 27, 2024 by joshuaho96

[Murray_Calavera]

1 hour ago, joshuaho96 said:

1. Factory knock sensors for now, honestly the RB26 OEM knock sensors seem ok as they're flat response instead of resonant type but they appear to be internally grounded to the block. If I do replace the sensor it would just be to get ones that are not internally grounded so a differential input can be used to reject common mode noise. Definitely plan on fixing this as a part of the tuning process.

2. Never deliberately induced knock, though I guess I could try that experiment if I really wanted to.

3. All of this is basically on a stock engine + ECU, only modification is HKS GTIII-SS turbos and a Nismo plenum. Currently I run it with the wastegate solenoid unplugged so it won't try to raise boost past wastegate pressure.

Ah yep. The main message I want to pass on is, try not to get scared of ghosts when thinking about knock/knock detection. 

What I mean is, healthy engines make noise. Knock is also noise. Your knock sensor and ECU combo are trying to determine bad noise from good noise based on how loud the noise is. The factory knock sensors and ECU are not good at doing this. 

Modern ECU's are pretty decent at it, however I'd still say that you would want to verify that if your ECU says it's knock, that you actually listen to it and confirm that it is correct. 

Are you familiar with the plex knock monitor?  https://www.plex-tuning.com/products/plex-knock-monitor-v3/

I expect you're the type of person that would be very keen to play with something like this. It is great knock detection and you can pop some headphones on and listen to what's going on. 

Knock that you've deliberately induced in low load low RPM areas is not really putting anything at risk and is a great tuning/learning/verification tool. 

I just thought this was worth mentioning based on the way you were talking about setting up a base map and the Haltech base map settings. There are better ways to spend your time then chasing ghosts and worrying about detonation in scenarios that it is crazy unlikely to encounter it. 

I was also wondering, what ECU are you planning to get? Will it be long til you pick it up?

[joshuaho96]

9 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

Ah yep. The main message I want to pass on is, try not to get scared of ghosts when thinking about knock/knock detection. 

What I mean is, healthy engines make noise. Knock is also noise. Your knock sensor and ECU combo are trying to determine bad noise from good noise based on how loud the noise is. The factory knock sensors and ECU are not good at doing this. 

Modern ECU's are pretty decent at it, however I'd still say that you would want to verify that if your ECU says it's knock, that you actually listen to it and confirm that it is correct. 

Are you familiar with the plex knock monitor?  https://www.plex-tuning.com/products/plex-knock-monitor-v3/

I expect you're the type of person that would be very keen to play with something like this. It is great knock detection and you can pop some headphones on and listen to what's going on. 

Knock that you've deliberately induced in low load low RPM areas is not really putting anything at risk and is a great tuning/learning/verification tool. 

I just thought this was worth mentioning based on the way you were talking about setting up a base map and the Haltech base map settings. There are better ways to spend your time then chasing ghosts and worrying about detonation in scenarios that it is crazy unlikely to encounter it. 

I was also wondering, what ECU are you planning to get? Will it be long til you pick it up?

I have an Elite 2500, honestly most of this has been a lot of smaller tasks chasing little details and a whole lot of life getting in the way of bigger projects. I don't mind too much looking at a spectrograph vs having audio knock ears. 

[Watermouse]

On 27/12/2024 at 6:04 AM, R3N3 said:

Another fanboy of DBW here, Outsider Garage from your neck of the woods make some nice conversion gear for the R33 (that’s where I got some of my gear from).

Outsider is where I got my dbw system and throttle body/accelerator harness’ from. Premo quality and customer service

[Blakeo]

On 12/23/2024 at 2:53 PM, jacobzking said:

I'm looking at the Haltech Platinum Pro ECU for my 93 R33 GTST.  With the base map loaded, should it be a plug n play with similar tune to OEM?  Or do they really need to be tuned, even on an otherwise stock car (intake, turbo-back exhaust)?  I do have an AEM wideband to monitor AFRs.

Also, I'm assuming I can use my Bosch sensor that's already installed on my downpipes (just before the high flow cat)?

Any tips for setting the thing up?  Other "upgrades" to consider to the ECU (z32 or r35 MAF)?  

Any info would be appreciated.  Thanks!!!

Please do yourself a massive favour and get the Link instead.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 hours ago, Blakeo said:

Please do yourself a massive favour and get the Link instead.

And why is that?

For the average car enthusiast, Haltech's GUI is much more user friendly and easier to navigate. Link's GUI is not, not to mention when you try and set your tuning panel and move gauges/tables around the rendering goes all fked. Also, much easier to layer additional dimensions on a Haltech than a Link.

Overall Link is a tiny bit more powerful in terms of motorsport features, less rigidity with the CANbus stuff however the GUI sucks.

[Blakeo]

1 hour ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

And why is that?

For the average car enthusiast, Haltech's GUI is much more user friendly and easier to navigate. Link's GUI is not, not to mention when you try and set your tuning panel and move gauges/tables around the rendering goes all fked. Also, much easier to layer additional dimensions on a Haltech than a Link.

Overall Link is a tiny bit more powerful in terms of motorsport features, less rigidity with the CANbus stuff however the GUI sucks.

My reasoning is the Link fits directly into the OEM enclosure. You don't need to make a bracket or double side tape the haltech somewhere.

The outputs can be tested in "Test Mode" making diagnosis much easier.

The logging is a lot better than Haltech's and the help file is amazing.

Link support is much better you can get someone on the phone 24 hours a day 6 days a week.

I feel like Haltech is a lot like Apple, where they really want you to just use their stuff. Some canbus stuff doesn't work unless it's specifically for Haltech, and it's not always cross compatible between the elite and nexus.

 

In saying this I am biased, I had issues with my elite 2500 and only had the car running with it for a year. All 4 of my cars also run Link G4X so yeah 😅

[GTSBoy]

My favourite tuner has sworn he will kill me if I put a Haltech in the car. He has had so much shit over the years (and I have seen some of it myself, directly) that he just won't play any more. I mean, he still tunes the stuff, but he won't facilitate anyone joining the club.

[joshuaho96]

29 minutes ago, Blakeo said:

My reasoning is the Link fits directly into the OEM enclosure. You don't need to make a bracket or double side tape the haltech somewhere.

The outputs can be tested in "Test Mode" making diagnosis much easier.

The logging is a lot better than Haltech's and the help file is amazing.

Link support is much better you can get someone on the phone 24 hours a day 6 days a week.

I feel like Haltech is a lot like Apple, where they really want you to just use their stuff. Some canbus stuff doesn't work unless it's specifically for Haltech, and it's not always cross compatible between the elite and nexus.

 

In saying this I am biased, I had issues with my elite 2500 and only had the car running with it for a year. All 4 of my cars also run Link G4X so yeah 😅

The general simplicity of the generic conditions/triggers in Haltech kind of drive me nuts. For mysterious reasons I felt like trying to replicate OEM catalyst light-off ignition timing but there's no reasonable way of doing any kind of math like finding the delta between IAT and CLT at engine start to set a flag that indicates cold start. Stuff like that is easy with Link. On the other hand, Link straight up doesn't support dual MAF load on the RB26 so...

[GTSBoy]

18 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

On the other hand, Link straight up doesn't support dual MAF load on the RB26 so...

Well, that is something that we've been trying to tell you is a complete boondoggle anyway. Just give it up and worry about things that matter.

[joshuaho96]

36 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Well, that is something that we've been trying to tell you is a complete boondoggle anyway. Just give it up and worry about things that matter.

You're not wrong, but this is one of those things I need to learn the hard way. I really, really dislike alpha-N for ignition or fuel load and I don't feel like pulling apart the manifold again for single throttle body conversion any time soon. I might be tempted to buy an Emtron for the throttle mass flow setup though, that might work well enough to get me off of this whole factory MAF setup idea but the way I see it the end result is still going to be scaling the load axes in cylinder airmass regardless.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

My favourite tuner has sworn he will kill me if I put a Haltech in the car. He has had so much shit over the years (and I have seen some of it myself, directly) that he just won't play any more. I mean, he still tunes the stuff, but he won't facilitate anyone joining the club.

Things have changed over the years since the PS2000 / Platinum Pro days.

When Andy from Adaptronic took over the technical department of Haltech it went from meh to great (yes there were initially hiccups but so negligible in the scheme of things).

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

18 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

alpha-N for ignition or fuel load

You layer this with a MAP dimension, you don't just purely use alpha-N.

[joshuaho96]

17 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

You layer this with a MAP dimension, you don't just purely use alpha-N.

Right, but I thought the problem has been for a while now that even if you know manifold pressure + throttle position you still have non-linearity and aliasing issues vs actual engine load? One way I can see things simplifying is going DBW, then all air going into the engine is represented by the throttle position. As opposed to a random bimetallic strip vaguely linked to engine temperature opening and closing a shutter or some random power steering air valve suddenly allowing a bunch of bypass air. But the same throttle position/RPM at ~atmospheric MAP in different gears is not guaranteed to be same engine load?

Honestly, ITBs are of such dubious value IMO. I don't know why these things are hyped up so much. The main benefit as far as I can tell is you reduce the likelihood of cross-cylinder EGR scavenging with significant cam overlap at idle. I would absolutely run speed density and be done with it if not for this fairly esoteric control problem.

Edited 27 minutes ago by joshuaho96

[MBS206]

17 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Things have changed over the years since the PS2000 / Platinum Pro days.

When Andy from Adaptronic took over the technical department of Haltech it went from meh to great (yes there were initially hiccups but so negligible in the scheme of things).

Yep, when Haltech purchased Adaptronic, and all of the Adaptronic staff, including Andy went with it, it took Haltech to the next level.
Haltech wanted Adaptronic as they wanted things like Andy's fuel models, and some other IP, AND they wanted Andy too as he is brilliant!

Andy has spoken about the incompatibilities between the old 1500 stuff vs Nexxus, and it totally makes sense. It's not JUST software that is different, there is huge changes in the underlying hardware too.

It's why Haltech has had soooo many changes in the last couple of years, in terms of Hardware, and Software, and why it has become so damn Amazing.

Why do you think guys like Rob Dahm with his quad rotor, went from running Adaptronic's to running Haltechs? Andy.
Pretty much, Haltech these days, is Adaptronic, but with more funds behind it, and more staff, and hence Andy's visions, and visions of other people that he helps shape their great visions, into amazing new products. All the new Nexxus gear, whole new software for it, new and better dashboards, the apps that will run on headunits and NOT be slow to respond!

I understand people being burnt in the past, but if you're ragging on a company, about products and issues from many years ago, it's more a reflection on yourself, not looking or keeping up with new stuff. In which case, those people should be going back to PowerFC and Nistunes as the ECU's to rave on about...

[MBS206]

17 hours ago, joshuaho96 said:

You're not wrong, but this is one of those things I need to learn the hard way. I really, really dislike alpha-N for ignition or fuel load and I don't feel like pulling apart the manifold again for single throttle body conversion any time soon. I might be tempted to buy an Emtron for the throttle mass flow setup though, that might work well enough to get me off of this whole factory MAF setup idea but the way I see it the end result is still going to be scaling the load axes in cylinder airmass regardless.

If you want to do a single throttle body conversion easily, you won't need to pull anything apart.
Take the linkage from your throttle off the linkage controlling the ITBs. Now open the ITBs wide open, and lock the linkages in said position.
Now add a single throttle body onto the front of your inlet plenum.
No it's not ideal for the last nth of a kw, but it'll be a lot better than what you're already trying to do...

 

PS, ITBs can be so damn hard to tune from, because roughly 20% movement in a throttle body equates to a change in roughly 80% of its flow (Hence power). When you add up the flow limitations of those small throttle bodys, it is a LOT higher than that of a single large throttle. Hence, TPS is very very sensitive with them, and you do a LOT of work with sensor fusion, and some Maths behind the scenes to make those blends nice, and be smooth.