🚨 Need Advice! Overcharged for Engineering Report 🚨

[vas]

I need help dealing with an engineer who is massively overcharging me for an engineering report on my modified, written-off Jeep to get it roadworthy.

🔹 Initially, he quoted me $3,500 - $4,500.
🔹 First invoice: $5,315 (already above the quote).
🔹 Second invoice: $1,375.
🔹 Now, he has sent another invoice for $3,100!

This is way more than double what I was originally quoted. I feel like I’m being ripped off.

Has anyone dealt with something like this before? What can I do? Any advice on how to report him or fight these unfair charges?

Would really appreciate any guidance! 🙏 Am in Adelaide.

[Shoota_77]

For me I'd need some serious justification for why it has blown out.  Have you questioned him on it?  To be honest if you didn't question him right from the get-go on the first invoice that was already way over the initial quote and then you've (presumably) then paid another $1375 on top of the first invoice, then you're pushing shit uphill to get a favourable result now...

It was years ago I last got an engineer out but it was around $450-$550 per visit.  That was just to inspect each progress point he gave me for the project.  Is he just doing progress inspections or is he providing engineering diagrams, technical assistance, etc??  If he's not, he's a filthy rip off merchant.  If the $3100 is the final sign off then you need to cop it on the chin, pay it and move on.  If it's not, piss him off and get a new one.  Not many Jeeps I'd value at $10K full stop let alone just engineering fees on a written off, half actual value WOVR Jeep....

[GTSBoy]

Can we see a scan of the original quote?

The problem with engineers (and by this, I mean, all engineers across all engineering industries) is that there are "engineers" and there are "engineers" (you'll have to imagine the two different vocal emphases on those two versions of the same word.

Engineering is a mindset - your farm kid who spent his life rebuilding the tractor will likely make a good engineer. The farm kid who spent his life taking photos of butterflies.. perhaps not. But on top of that mindset, the modern engineer has to learn how to write so that there is absolutely no way of being misunderstood. Proposals/budget estimates/quotations are one place where this is absolutely vital. You have to delineate your scope of supply with extremely hard boundaries, and anywhere where there is any possibility of not being able to have such a hard boundary, you need to write language that will cover you from scope creep, cost overruns, the inevitable interference of the client or their "engineer", etc etc.

Now, if your clients are the BHPs and the Rio Tintos of the world, and similar, then you get good at this. If you are an automotive engineer, pitching work to the great unwashed masses, your skills in this area might not be well developed, because you're only dealing with knuckle draggers trying to get a big block legal in a Torana. And when I say "might not"....I'd suggest there's a better than even chance that any such skills might be completely absent.

So, we might be able to look at your quote and see what the opportunities are for rebuttal.

[MBS206]

Geez, engineers fees have definitely gone up.

Mine back 2007 cost me all of $300.

Mind you, I had to go back to him a few times to get him to write the correct things on the report after he'd inspected it. Things like wrong exhaust size, wrong wheel sizes, etc etc.

[GTSBoy]

f**k. I charge that per hour.

[The Bogan]

Does that price include the rack time to straighten the frame and body and replacement of parts and paint, as well as the noise and emmisions testing 

The last engineering certificate I had done, albeit about 15 years ago, was around $1000 for a few inspections and the certificate 

[Shoota_77]

Slight segway but the most expensive part of the whole thing which I would have thought would only be required for an engine size/type swap, not a VIV test, is emissions testing.  That's when you get into the big bucks.  I can't remember the exact price now but I got quotes for the GT-R based on swapping to RB30 (not that anyone bothers doing it legally anymore...) and it was around $4500 just for that alone.  The guy that does them manipulates the tune on the vehicle to make sure it passes.  The cheaper option is to book into Kangan Batman Tafe (I think that's where it was) and hire their tester.  Allegedly you're not allowed in there with the car though so not in a position to tweak anything to make sure the vehicle passes.  I'm sure in this day and age of ultra tuneable ECU's you could get the tuner to program a special efficiency (clean) tune that emits the lowest amount of particulates possible that would pass the test.  It might only make 50kW's but as long as it passed who cares!

[GTSBoy]

20 minutes ago, Shoota_77 said:

I'm sure in this day and age of ultra tuneable ECU's you could get the tuner to program a special efficiency (clean) tune that emits the lowest amount of particulates possible that would pass the test.  It might only make 50kW's but as long as it passed who cares!

Yeah - but it's not actually that easy. There are limits for HC, CO, NOx and particulates. Particulates shouldn't be a concern in any petrol engine unless trying to comply to the very latest Euro standard. But getting a tune right so that all the others stay within limits AT THE SAME TIME is not a trivial exercise. You couldn't possibly get it right by just guessing at the tuner's dyno, unless he had a 4 gas analyser up the pipe, which is not often the case these days. It used to be. Every decent shop that did "tune ups" (as opposed to tuning) would have a 4 gas analsyer. Perhaps there's still quite a few of them around these days. But most "tuners" are only watching O2 and power readings.

[The Bogan]

21 minutes ago, Shoota_77 said:

Slight segway but the most expensive part of the whole thing which I would have thought would only be required for an engine size/type swap, not a VIV test, is emissions testing.  That's when you get into the big bucks.  I can't remember the exact price now but I got quotes for the GT-R based on swapping to RB30 (not that anyone bothers doing it legally anymore...) and it was around $4500 just for that alone.  The guy that does them manipulates the tune on the vehicle to make sure it passes.  The cheaper option is to book into Kangan Batman Tafe (I think that's where it was) and hire their tester.  Allegedly you're not allowed in there with the car though so not in a position to tweak anything to make sure the vehicle passes.  I'm sure in this day and age of ultra tuneable ECU's you could get the tuner to program a special efficiency (clean) tune that emits the lowest amount of particulates possible that would pass the test.  It might only make 50kW's but as long as it passed who cares!

From when I was looking at getting the 86 engineered for the turbo, the joint said to put in a few euro 5 or 6 cats, then tune the car on a nice clean E85 tune

When I was looking at a turbo for the MX5, it was basically the same thing, a couple of cats and a nice clean tune

Although, it will depend on the year of the Jeep IRT emmisions standards required, and what mods are done, especially if it has a newer engine installed that requires a higher Euro

[MBS206]

8 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

f**k. I charge that per hour.

Well, in 2007 he must have been charging about $1800 an hour. He only looked at the car for 5 minutes. And another 4 to write the report wrong, and another minute to correct it.

Mind you, this was for a car that was:

Stock engine, fmic (hole in drivers guard), all alloy intake and custom air box, 3 inch turbo back exhaust, lowered, and a set of 17" Advans (255/40/17 rear and 235/45/17 front).

It was nothing crazy. The blue slipper wanted the "hole in the guard" engineered. But that was because he got the shits that I wouldn't "relocate the battery from the boot, back to the factory position in the engine bay"... In an R33 GTST...

 

 

Also for emissions, E85, and don't go wild on timing. It's amazing how the closer you get ignition timing towards max torque, the last couple of degrees really throw NOx counts right up. And for the huge increase in emissions, it's only a small increase in torque.

[TurboTapin]

13 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Can we see a scan of the original quote?

The problem with engineers (and by this, I mean, all engineers across all engineering industries) is that there are "engineers" and there are "engineers" (you'll have to imagine the two different vocal emphases on those two versions of the same word.

Engineering is a mindset - your farm kid who spent his life rebuilding the tractor will likely make a good engineer. The farm kid who spent his life taking photos of butterflies.. perhaps not. But on top of that mindset, the modern engineer has to learn how to write so that there is absolutely no way of being misunderstood. Proposals/budget estimates/quotations are one place where this is absolutely vital. You have to delineate your scope of supply with extremely hard boundaries, and anywhere where there is any possibility of not being able to have such a hard boundary, you need to write language that will cover you from scope creep, cost overruns, the inevitable interference of the client or their "engineer", etc etc.

Now, if your clients are the BHPs and the Rio Tintos of the world, and similar, then you get good at this. If you are an automotive engineer, pitching work to the great unwashed masses, your skills in this area might not be well developed, because you're only dealing with knuckle draggers trying to get a big block legal in a Torana. And when I say "might not"....I'd suggest there's a better than even chance that any such skills might be completely absent.

So, we might be able to look at your quote and see what the opportunities are for rebuttal.

Out of curiosity, I believe the title of "Engineer" is not protected in Australia like it is over here. I'm curious, does Australia actually have professional engineers do vehicle inspections?  If so, Jesus Christ what in the f**k.

Edited 51 minutes ago by TurboTapin