R32GTR R200 reverting from Nismo centre to stock

[djr81]

I have an old R32 in the shed that hasnt moved much in the last few years and probably should see the light of day.

At one point I had a Nismo 1.5 centre put in the rear diff. It is a clunky nightmare POS of a thing on a good day. To make it less painful the initial torque setting has been put on the minimum (7.0kgf-m, mid is 9.5, high is 14) and the oil changed out to something more slippery. But it is still awful and ruins the vibe of the thing.

So my questions are:

Given I have the original parts sitting in a box somewhere would it be better to rebuild the thing again, reverting to more purity?

Is there a standard kit or do you just go and replace the friction plates etc and shim it the way you like it. How much initial torque does the standard R32 rear diff have?

Or does the Nismo disc kit offer a better solution - the caveat being the initial torque for both options appears to be higher than the clunky 1.5 way.

There appear to be two Nismo disc kits:

3843S-RS520 for 8kgf-m.

3843S-RS521 for 12kgf-m.

Or is the easiest solution to reshim the Nismo diff to make it looser?

Edited Thursday at 01:42 AM by djr81

[joshuaho96]

1 hour ago, djr81 said:

I have an old R32 in the shed that hasnt moved much in the last few years and probably should see the light of day.

At one point I had a Nismo 1.5 centre put in the rear diff. It is a clunky nightmare POS of a thing on a good day. To make it less painful the initial torque setting has been put on the minimum (7.0kgf-m, mid is 9.5, high is 14) and the oil changed out to something more slippery. But it is still awful and ruins the vibe of the thing.

So my questions are:

Given I have the original parts sitting in a box somewhere would it be better to rebuild the thing again, reverting to more purity?

Is there a standard kit or do you just go and replace the friction plates etc and shim it the way you like it. How much initial torque does the standard R32 rear diff have?

Or does the Nismo disc kit offer a better solution - the caveat being the initial torque for both options appears to be higher than the clunky 1.5 way.

There appear to be two Nismo disc kits:

3843S-RS520 for 8kgf-m.

3843S-RS521 for 12kgf-m.

Or is the easiest solution to reshim the Nismo diff to make it looser?

Factory LSD is supposedly a 2 way with a very conservative cam. If you've already tried adding friction modifier to the diff oil and it still locks up too much for your liking you might want to adjust the ramp rate on the cam to be more like OEM instead of reducing initial torque even further. People claim the 8 kgf-m disc kit for the OEM LSD is still very streetable but I've never been able to compare everything side by side on my own.

Edited Thursday at 02:33 AM by joshuaho96

[djr81]

It is possibly 55 degrees for the Nismo version.

I had a look through the manual and the stocker has a breakaway torque of 2.5 to 3.5kgm. Supposedly the Nismo LSD goes down to 5kgm when worn in but it is pretty grabby even with very little throttle. Worse when cold.

So I guess you have three things.

1. Shims.

2 Friction plates

3. Cams

Would think shims would be the easiest but Ive no clue how many tenths of a mm shim thickness change equals how many kgm torque.

Also not sure if the Nismo friction plates are similar/different to stock or if they are the most of the source of the diff being angry.

Think I can write off the Nismo rebuild kit for the standard diff as not being what I want.

 

[joshuaho96]

1 hour ago, djr81 said:

It is possibly 55 degrees for the Nismo version.

I had a look through the manual and the stocker has a breakaway torque of 2.5 to 3.5kgm. Supposedly the Nismo LSD goes down to 5kgm when worn in but it is pretty grabby even with very little throttle. Worse when cold.

So I guess you have three things.

1. Shims.

2 Friction plates

3. Cams

Would think shims would be the easiest but Ive no clue how many tenths of a mm shim thickness change equals how many kgm torque.

Also not sure if the Nismo friction plates are similar/different to stock or if they are the most of the source of the diff being angry.

Think I can write off the Nismo rebuild kit for the standard diff as not being what I want.

 

I would try messing with friction modifier to see if it smooths it out.  Just keep adding more until it stops chattering or grabbing quite so much. If you haven't changed the gear oil in a long time you may as well start there too in case that has anything to do with it. You might want to also verify the initial torque is set to the lowest setting too. Requires popping out one of the CV axles first but that's not too bad. Once you're sure the preload is set to the lowest you can try adding an ounce at a time of friction modifier until it feels right to you.

Edited Thursday at 05:36 AM by joshuaho96

[GTSBoy]

1 hour ago, joshuaho96 said:

an ounce at a time

Or a useable metric unit?

[MBS206]

48 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Or a useable metric unit?

But it's much better to use a freedom unit that has four different possible meanings...

[Duncan]

All I can add is that I run a shimmed factory diff and it is awesome for a balance between grip and clunks.....but no I don't know exactly what is in there and the shop that did it sadly is gone. I guess the point is just that the factory centre can be modified to do exactly what we want for racing

[joshuaho96]

2 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Or a useable metric unit?

30 mL or something. I hate the lack of standardization on metric too, leads to annoying situations like not being able to find an M12x1.25 nut at the hardware store unless I special order or find the one store in a 30 km radius that actually stocks a non-trivial quantity of the thing so there's at least an 80% chance they haven't all been stolen.

[GTSBoy]

Don't you have specialist fastener warehouses? I can point to a non-trivial number of them in my city of 1.5 mllion people. Sassafras agencies is a 2 minute walk from my office. United Fasteners is almost exactly halfway between my work and my house, so less than 15km from each. All metric sizes, all SAE sizes, all materials, all thread pitches, all form factors.

I know the street address of one and have walked into and bought stainless bolts, nuts and washers from, 2000km away in a regional centre in Western Australia with a population of <200000.

Only mugs buy their fasteners at hardware stores. Our version of Lowes or the orange hellzone is called Bunnings. A rip off merchant of cheaply made exclusive home brand Chinese excreta of the first order.

We can walk into Blackwoods, which is the Oz equivalent of Grainger, and get robbed blind, but at least it's getting robbed blind on proper industrial grade gear.

 

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Try using Penrite 80W140, has Limslip predosed into it 

[MBS206]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

Don't you have specialist fastener warehouses? I can point to a non-trivial number of them in my city of 1.5 mllion people. Sassafras agencies is a 2 minute walk from my office. United Fasteners is almost exactly halfway between my work and my house, so less than 15km from each. All metric sizes, all SAE sizes, all materials, all thread pitches, all form factors.

I know the street address of one and have walked into and bought stainless bolts, nuts and washers from, 2000km away in a regional centre in Western Australia with a population of <200000.

Only mugs buy their fasteners at hardware stores. Our version of Lowes or the orange hellzone is called Bunnings. A rip off merchant of cheaply made exclusive home brand Chinese excreta of the first order.

We can walk into Blackwoods, which is the Oz equivalent of Grainger, and get robbed blind, but at least it's getting robbed blind on proper industrial grade gear.

 

 

And what you pay for a pack of 8 bolts and nuts at Bunnings, will land me 200 of the same nuts and bolts from a fastener shop.

 

1 hour ago, joshuaho96 said:

30 mL or something. I hate the lack of standardization on metric too, leads to annoying situations like not being able to find an M12x1.25 nut at the hardware store unless I special order or find the one store in a 30 km radius that actually stocks a non-trivial quantity of the thing so there's at least an 80% chance they haven't all been stolen.

M12 * 1.25 IS a standard.

It's not like ordering M12x1.25 and hoping the thread pitch is right. Unlike ordering an ounce, will get you 4 different amounts depending on which ounce someone takes it to be.

Your issue is a supply issue.

[joshuaho96]

13 hours ago, MBS206 said:

And what you pay for a pack of 8 bolts and nuts at Bunnings, will land me 200 of the same nuts and bolts from a fastener shop.

 

M12 * 1.25 IS a standard.

It's not like ordering M12x1.25 and hoping the thread pitch is right. Unlike ordering an ounce, will get you 4 different amounts depending on which ounce someone takes it to be.

Your issue is a supply issue.

Yes, the problem is the supply chain hasn't standardized on metric which makes it more expensive to source metric hardware.

15 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Don't you have specialist fastener warehouses? I can point to a non-trivial number of them in my city of 1.5 mllion people. Sassafras agencies is a 2 minute walk from my office. United Fasteners is almost exactly halfway between my work and my house, so less than 15km from each. All metric sizes, all SAE sizes, all materials, all thread pitches, all form factors.

I know the street address of one and have walked into and bought stainless bolts, nuts and washers from, 2000km away in a regional centre in Western Australia with a population of <200000.

Only mugs buy their fasteners at hardware stores. Our version of Lowes or the orange hellzone is called Bunnings. A rip off merchant of cheaply made exclusive home brand Chinese excreta of the first order.

We can walk into Blackwoods, which is the Oz equivalent of Grainger, and get robbed blind, but at least it's getting robbed blind on proper industrial grade gear.

 

 

They're all mail order at this point. Fastenal is cheap but you can't exactly rock up to a fulfillment warehouse as a random D2C. Paying 13 USD in shipping for 3 nuts doesn't really make sense. McMaster-Carr and similar companies are all in a similar sort of boat. If you like gambling on mystery hardware Amazon is cheap too but you're going to be buying 25 of whatever screw you need. So Lowes/Home Depot ends up being the way to go if you really only need small quantities of hardware for odd jobs like trying to rebuild a power steering pump that calls for an m6x1.0 screw to pop out the flow control valve. 

Edited Friday at 01:25 AM by joshuaho96

[UWISSH!]

14 hours ago, MBS206 said:

And what you pay for a pack of 8 bolts and nuts at Bunnings, will land me 200 of the same nuts and bolts from a fastener shop.

 

M12 * 1.25 IS a standard.

It's not like ordering M12x1.25 and hoping the thread pitch is right. Unlike ordering an ounce, will get you 4 different amounts depending on which ounce someone takes it to be.

Your issue is a supply issue.

Wait a sec…. You pay for bolts at bunnings? I usually just pocket the 1 or 2 bolts I’m short.

everything else is courtesy of work

[djr81]

Thanks lads. Ill go get some more diff oil and have a think about how much friction modifier etc to have in it.

For whatever reason the Nismo item feels much clunkier than a shimmed the stock one. I got suckered by the prospect of it pushing a bit less off throttle and ended up with a clunkfest.

[GTSBoy]

4 minutes ago, djr81 said:

For whatever reason the Nismo item feels much clunkier than a shimmed the stock one.

From what I understand, the normal Nismo diff is a bit harsh, and the Pro is the one that behaves more nicely, and you only pay Nismo tax twice to get it.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

If you think that's harsh, go experience a KAAZ 🥲

Thoughts and prayers for Dose.

I had mine modified by a diff shop to make it less brutal, no idea what they did but it's not as brutal as before.

The Asian in me was being tight before and went KAAZ instead of a Nismo, lesson learned.

[MBS206]

35 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

If you think that's harsh, go experience a KAAZ 🥲

Thoughts and prayers for Dose.

I had mine modified by a diff shop to make it less brutal, no idea what they did but it's not as brutal as before.

The Asian in me was being tight before and went KAAZ instead of a Nismo, lesson learned.

Just cage it, call it a race car, and then fall in love with the chirp chirps through pit area!

 

Also, this is coming from someone with a completely locked diff...

Edited Friday at 03:43 AM by MBS206

[MBS206]

2 hours ago, UWISSH! said:

Wait a sec…. You pay for bolts at bunnings? I usually just pocket the 1 or 2 bolts I’m short.

everything else is courtesy of work

No, I refuse to buy their cheap ass crap!
I do need to order a bunch of different nuts/bolts to refill my nut/bolt wall though. Maybe you could go for a walk through Bunnings for me? (Or send me some stuff from your work? )

 

2 hours ago, joshuaho96 said:

Yes, the problem is the supply chain hasn't standardized on metric which makes it more expensive to source metric hardware.

They're all mail order at this point. Fastenal is cheap but you can't exactly rock up to a fulfillment warehouse as a random D2C. Paying 13 USD in shipping for 3 nuts doesn't really make sense. McMaster-Carr and similar companies are all in a similar sort of boat. If you like gambling on mystery hardware Amazon is cheap too but you're going to be buying 25 of whatever screw you need. So Lowes/Home Depot ends up being the way to go if you really only need small quantities of hardware for odd jobs like trying to rebuild a power steering pump that calls for an m6x1.0 screw to pop out the flow control valve. 

I really struggle to work out how the US standardised to Metric in what the 70s or 80s, and yet, half a century later, there's been little done to actually bring it into fruition. It truly baffles me 

 

On the whole Fastenal thing, I went reading their site (My god they sell a lot of varied stuff!), and it seems like it really depends what store you're near if you can walk in and just grab a few small things, or if that branch is primarily distribution with only a small window of "counter time" available (if at all). That definitely makes it harder, as move locations and it drastically changes your ability for success

 

For things like your M6x1.0, if you want to work on your own Skyline, and you also have a "home workshop" I'd recommend setting yourself up a small Nut/Bolt wall/section. It doesn't even need to be big at all. Most things depending on the diameter, will be a specific pitch, like the M6x1, M5x0.7 etc. Bigger bolts is mostly 1.5, except for a small number of things and that will come down to torque.

From memory bolts for the brake calipers (and other things that need a lot of torque) will end up being a 1.25mm pitch.
Save up a few dollars, and order a range of nuts/bolts. If you want to minimise cost a little, buy something like M6 x 40, and M6x70mm (1mm pitch) in both. In addition, buy yourself an M6x1mm thread chaser. That way you have long bolts that you can cut down to size, and then chase the threads out.
Funnily enough, I find what I'd pay here for ordering 5 bolts, I can pay about 50% more and you'll get 100 of them.

 

If that doesn't quite work out due to space / ability to buy plenty up front, then each time you need some bolts, order 100 of what ever you're getting. Put them in clearly marked containers. Over a few years, you'll acquire plenty of different sizes, and will end up ordering less and less. And the cost for 100 bolts won't be much more than you paid for your 5 you needed to order anyway  Just takes a little planning ahead, by investigating what nuts/bolts you'll need, and ordering them before doing the job.

 

 

Edit: If it's also primarily for working on just the Skyline, for some reason my brain is screaming that at some point, either Nissan, Nismo, (Or possibly a third party) was selling a "kit" of every nut and bolt in a Skyline, purely for people restoring/rebuilding. It'd likely be quite expensive, but would give you every/any nut/bolt you need for stock/factory things. I'm not sure if it's still available, or even if it actually fully came to market, it's just something niggling in the back of my brain that you could look into further if that sort of thing interested you? (It might have been for the R32 GTR or something specifically too, and not just any Skyline)

Edited Friday at 04:07 AM by MBS206

[The Bogan]

4 hours ago, MBS206 said:

No, I refuse to buy their cheap ass crap!
I do need to order a bunch of different nuts/bolts to refill my nut/bolt wall though. Maybe you could go for a walk through Bunnings for me? (Or send me some stuff from your work? )

 

I really struggle to work out how the US standardised to Metric in what the 70s or 80s, and yet, half a century later, there's been little done to actually bring it into fruition. It truly baffles me 

 

On the whole Fastenal thing, I went reading their site (My god they sell a lot of varied stuff!), and it seems like it really depends what store you're near if you can walk in and just grab a few small things, or if that branch is primarily distribution with only a small window of "counter time" available (if at all). That definitely makes it harder, as move locations and it drastically changes your ability for success

 

For things like your M6x1.0, if you want to work on your own Skyline, and you also have a "home workshop" I'd recommend setting yourself up a small Nut/Bolt wall/section. It doesn't even need to be big at all. Most things depending on the diameter, will be a specific pitch, like the M6x1, M5x0.7 etc. Bigger bolts is mostly 1.5, except for a small number of things and that will come down to torque.

From memory bolts for the brake calipers (and other things that need a lot of torque) will end up being a 1.25mm pitch.
Save up a few dollars, and order a range of nuts/bolts. If you want to minimise cost a little, buy something like M6 x 40, and M6x70mm (1mm pitch) in both. In addition, buy yourself an M6x1mm thread chaser. That way you have long bolts that you can cut down to size, and then chase the threads out.
Funnily enough, I find what I'd pay here for ordering 5 bolts, I can pay about 50% more and you'll get 100 of them.

 

If that doesn't quite work out due to space / ability to buy plenty up front, then each time you need some bolts, order 100 of what ever you're getting. Put them in clearly marked containers. Over a few years, you'll acquire plenty of different sizes, and will end up ordering less and less. And the cost for 100 bolts won't be much more than you paid for your 5 you needed to order anyway  Just takes a little planning ahead, by investigating what nuts/bolts you'll need, and ordering them before doing the job.

 

 

Edit: If it's also primarily for working on just the Skyline, for some reason my brain is screaming that at some point, either Nissan, Nismo, (Or possibly a third party) was selling a "kit" of every nut and bolt in a Skyline, purely for people restoring/rebuilding. It'd likely be quite expensive, but would give you every/any nut/bolt you need for stock/factory things. I'm not sure if it's still available, or even if it actually fully came to market, it's just something niggling in the back of my brain that you could look into further if that sort of thing interested you? (It might have been for the R32 GTR or something specifically too, and not just any Skyline)

I love fastener joints, the price difference between them and joints like Bunnings or Super Cheap is amazing, and they either have exactly what you want, or they can get it to quick

They have even given me some for free when I only needed a couple of specific size

In saying this, I have paid premium for fasteners from Bunnings if they have the sizes I need, but only for convenience really, as my local is only 10 minutes away, the Sushi joint near them is also a consideration 

How's the weather Matt? Stay safe mate

[MBS206]

42 minutes ago, The Bogan said:

I love fastener joints, the price difference between them and joints like Bunnings or Super Cheap is amazing, and they either have exactly what you want, or they can get it to quick

They have even given me some for free when I only needed a couple of specific size

In saying this, I have paid premium for fasteners from Bunnings if they have the sizes I need, but only for convenience really, as my local is only 10 minutes away, the Sushi joint near them is also a consideration 

How's the weather Matt? Stay safe mate

It's about the same time for me from Bunnings, or the Fasteners. My big push away from takeaway food, and gluten in general keeps me away from the Bunnings Snags too!

Weather up here, I've been out for two walks today in the beautiful sunshine.
Had a few little drizzles, and some wind, that honestly, a tin of beans and I could compete on how harsh she blows
Thankfully, being this bit inland, we're not getting anything much really. Will probably pick up a bit more when/if Cyclone Alfie decides to come ashore. A few areas in the GC though, and south into NSW are really getting smashed though!
Right now, I'm just annoyed Alfie hasn't hit, as I'm not allowed to crack into the BBQ foods like the bacon and eggs until the Cyclone hits "In case we lose power"...