R32 update from 1990's spec.

[djr81]

I still have an old R32R left over from when they were a thing in the early 2000's. It was, for its time, done about right. But its time was 20 years ago.  I did try and update it a while back but it was cruelled by a (recommended) muppet of a tuna who couldnt tell his MAP from his TPS.

The original spec was:

Power FC, 700cc Sards, Nismo pump, 2860-5's, cams (Basically Poncam A's), Z32 AFM's and a half sorted oiling system. Thereabouts 430rwhp irrespective of what was done.

So, yeah, very 1990's.

I eventually got sick of it not being very refined and bought a Link G4 PNP with some 1000cc Bosch injectors. This was tuned badly and I put the car in the shed for a few years whilst I sulked and went and did other things. Ive come around to the idea of getting it going again so it has a new gearbox installed and some other minor things in the planning.

So my questions are, variously (In the context of keeping the Link)

What other sensors should I be running eg It has no wideband on it at the moment, nor fuel pressure. $?

Is it worth chucking the old ignition system (ignitors etc) for new ignition coils? $2k?

Cam/crank angle sensors? Can keep the aircon? $?

Anything else?

Sorry to launch another what should I do with my car thread but, you know, what should I do with my car?

Random photo for historical context.

Edited Friday at 03:32 AM by djr81

[MBS206]

My thing I'd be doing, is pulling it out, and just getting the tune cleaned up for now.

Before that even happens, checking over everything, like vac hoses, fuel hoses, etc.

No point dropping thousands on sensors if the moment you start it back up all the oil leaks out, or it has massive vacuum leaks etc.

 

But really, to know what to do, depends on what your use case is. Hard core track car? Throw most sensors available at it.

Street car, I'd probably just run oil pressure, oil temps, water pressure, water temp, probably fuel pressure too.

I don't know exactly what the Link can handle and do with those though.

And if it's mainly just to cruise the streets, rather than mountain runs, you can probably skip most of the above if you've already got them in as gauges and warning lights.

 

PS, inb4 "sell it and buy a modern sportscar"

[djr81]

Its sort of street but got used for circuit sprints on account of I never drive it on the road because I dont have the time to spare. So it usage was sits around for months at a time then gets driven either 50 or 250 kms to the track followed by 20 laps followed by 50 or 250kms home followed by stuck in the shed until next time.

So yeah neither fish nor fowl. Just dont want to break it on the track as a preference. Hence the fairly short sensor/mod list. Probably more worried about it pinging itself to destruction more so than anything oil related.

Edited Friday at 05:36 AM by djr81

[MBS206]

18 minutes ago, djr81 said:

Its sort of street but got used for circuit sprints on account of I never drive it on the road because I dont have the time to spare. So it usage was sits around for months at a time then gets driven either 50 or 250 kms to the track followed by 20 laps followed by 50 or 250kms home followed by stuck in the shed until next time.

So yeah neither fish nor fowl. Just dont want to break it on the track as a preference. Hence the fairly short sensor/mod list.

Any plans for E85? If so, add flex fuel sensor.

 

I'd probably add in the sensors I mentioned above if the Link will support using them for engine protection.

With water pressure, you need to be able to effectively set it that "If temp > X, and pressure = atmospheric, shutdown" as at running temp, you should be able to read pressure in the cooling system. If pressure suddenly disappears, it means the water went some where, and this is a quicker reaction than waiting on water temp to go up (Which, can take a little longer than you'd like, considering it now has to wait for hot air to heat it up)

Oil pressure, Oil temp, both would be on my list too if you're looking to add sensors.
Wideband O2.
And at least one EGT sensor. If you're feeling deluxe, put in individual runner EGTs.
Single EGT sensor is more so forget about a specific number, get used to "What is normal EGTs", and then keep an eye on it, if it starts going away from "normal" it's a sign something is wrong (Also, things like the tune can still start going out of spec, but EGTs may not show it, for example one injector starts running leaning, so ECU richens everything up, now 5 out of 6 cylinders are rich, and running cool, with one cylinder lean and running hotter, so it's not perfect)

Then there is your other things to look at non sensor related, but you may have already done, or have underway, and that would be things like building a sump for more oil, and better oil control under high G-Forces (Cornering, brakes, acceleration).

Basically, the above is worth looking/thinking about, if the ECU can do protective stuff with it, and you continue to use it how you are (Drive it to the track, thrash it, drive home, repeat once every 3 to 4 months)

[joshuaho96]

1 hour ago, djr81 said:

I still have an old R32R left over from when they were a thing in the early 2000's. It was, for its time, done about right. But its time was 20 years ago.  I did try and update it a while back but it was cruelled by a (recommended) muppet of a tuna who couldnt tell his MAP from his TPS.

The original spec was:

Power FC, 700cc Sards, Nismo pump, 2860-5's, cams (Basically Poncam A's), Z32 AFM's and a half sorted oiling system. Thereabouts 430rwhp irrespective of what was done.

So, yeah, very 1990's.

I eventually got sick of it not being very refined and bought a Link G4 PNP with some 1000cc Bosch injectors. This was tuned badly and I put the car in the shed for a few years whilst I sulked and went and did other things. Ive come around to the idea of getting it going again so it has a new gearbox installed and some other minor things in the planning.

So my questions are, variously (In the context of keeping the Link)

What other sensors should I be running eg It has no wideband on it at the moment, nor fuel pressure. $?

Is it worth chucking the old ignition system (ignitors etc) for new ignition coils? $2k?

Cam/crank angle sensors? Can keep the aircon? $?

Anything else?

Sorry to launch another what should I do with my car thread but, you know, what should I do with my car?

Random photo for historical context.

Wideband is worth setting up if only for tuning purposes. I would not mess with the ignition system unless there's a misfire. HKS crank trigger is popular out here for the relatively easily sourced Denso crank sensor, not a bad idea to install as well regardless of power level on a standalone. Boost leak test is worth thinking about. Oil pressure sensor tied to a fuel cut isn't a bad idea either. Getting the tune figured out is a good idea. Without putting eyes on it and getting under it there's no way for us to tell you exactly what it needs but most likely you're down to the last 10% that will make a big, big difference in how happy you are with the car.

[robbo_rb180]

Add these Sensors -Wideband, Oil Pressure, Fuel pressure, Intake air temp
Good inspection of ignition system of coils, plugs and loom (12v feed and good ground)- a r35 kit is best bang for buck upgrade.
A decent tuner should be able to see any issues with the trigger system- a link has good filtering but a good simple upgrade is the nz wiring bolt in kit.
Check and replace all the fuel filters- you would be surprised at intank filter after a few years.
Also good to check for any leaks on vac hoses and pipe work as has been said.
No need to go overboard and spend big $$$ to enjoy the car.

A quality tuner is getting harder to find as anyone with a laptop thinks they are a tuner. A link has great features to check sensor voltages and frequency inputs and easy to see live by pressing f12. The link can do a TPS & RPM fuel/ignition mapping on ITB cars then add a 4D table with MAP and ability to add a 5D to it (can help with economy at cruise with wheel speed vs TPS)

Where are you located as that will help narrow down a good tuner ?

[Duncan]

Great to hear you are bringing it out of the shed again.

Unless you have specific issues I'd just add the wideband, get a good tune and enjoy it. Certainly no point changing coils etc if they are working. If would add fuel pressure and e85 sensor if you are doing a general update but not if it runs OK and you are just getting it back on track.

The other thing is smaller, modern twins, -5 are OK for motorsport but pretty laggy and old tech for street use (of course, if performance is the priority a modern single with twin scroll manifold etc is the go but not cheap).

The final thing worth considering is switching to an ethrottle if drivability is still an issue, it should make things a lot simpler and smoother

[djr81]

The plan is to get it out of the shed. The reality may fall some way short. But hope is as cheap as despair as they say.

Will go a wide band I think.

The coils are ok so maybe I’ll miss the $1500 on the R35 coils etc.

Im still on the fence about a trigger kit. The HKS one looks nice ($1k) - not sure how it works with the Link or if Link prefer something else.

Oil pressure is fine so I’m not that concerned there.

Fuel pressure I’ll have a think about.

The IAT got changed for the Link anyway as the old RB26 ones were really slow reacting and pretty poor.

The Power FC just worked. Wasn’t terribly refined but it just worked. Probably made a mistake replacing it really.

E85 isn’t available locally - it is 100+ kms away which puts it in the too hard basket.

Lastly I understand Tunecorp in Perth are pretty good so was probably going there.

 

As for turbos is there are new age -5 drop in replacement? Turbos have come a long way in 20 years, everyone is big single which is fair enough but I prefer the old school complication of twins. Wasn’t chasing more power (well, not much more) but more efficiency would be ok.

[robbo_rb180]

45 minutes ago, djr81 said:

The plan is to get it out of the shed. The reality may fall some way short. But hope is as cheap as despair as they say.

Will go a wide band I think.

The coils are ok so maybe I’ll miss the $1500 on the R35 coils etc.

Im still on the fence about a trigger kit. The HKS one looks nice ($1k) - not sure how it works with the Link or if Link prefer something else.

Oil pressure is fine so I’m not that concerned there.

Fuel pressure I’ll have a think about.

The IAT got changed for the Link anyway as the old RB26 ones were really slow reacting and pretty poor.

The Power FC just worked. Wasn’t terribly refined but it just worked. Probably made a mistake replacing it really.

E85 isn’t available locally - it is 100+ kms away which puts it in the too hard basket.

Lastly I understand Tunecorp in Perth are pretty good so was probably going there.

 

As for turbos is there are new age -5 drop in replacement? Turbos have come a long way in 20 years, everyone is big single which is fair enough but I prefer the old school complication of twins. Wasn’t chasing more power (well, not much more) but more efficiency would be ok.

The NZ wiring kit is a 1/3 the price and will be perfectly fine for your application, I've ran one for 6+ years and many others have. Comes as a full plug into factory connector and the settings for a Link.
https://www.nzwiring.com/index.php/product/trigger-kit/

Always comes back to the tuners knowledge and experience with a tuning platform. It takes years to become proficient and learning all aspects and capabilities. I've been using Links for 16 years now (rb and sr paltforms) and always learning something new with adding tables, diagnostics and data logging.

Stay 98 for the usability and keep it simple so you can enjoy the car more.

With experience I'll give you a current example of the industry I am in. They use Motec m190 and only use VE tuning when they have a torque mapping available and would solve the "PARITY" issues that plagues the category all because the muppet doing the tuning doesn't understand the platform or want to learn it and the product seller have no idea on its full capabilities ( I had a good laugh as when firing up an older car that just got completed and they didn't understand the injector scaling or how to change it for different fuel being used)
 

[MBS206]

6 minutes ago, robbo_rb180 said:

The NZ wiring kit is a 1/3 the price and will be perfectly fine for your application, I've ran one for 6+ years and many others have. Comes as a full plug into factory connector and the settings for a Link.
https://www.nzwiring.com/index.php/product/trigger-kit/

Always comes back to the tuners knowledge and experience with a tuning platform. It takes years to become proficient and learning all aspects and capabilities. I've been using Links for 16 years now (rb and sr paltforms) and always learning something new with adding tables, diagnostics and data logging.

Stay 98 for the usability and keep it simple so you can enjoy the car more.

With experience I'll give you a current example of the industry I am in. They use Motec m190 and only use VE tuning when they have a torque mapping available and would solve the "PARITY" issues that plagues the category all because the muppet doing the tuning doesn't understand the platform or want to learn it and the product seller have no idea on its full capabilities ( I had a good laugh as when firing up an older car that just got completed and they didn't understand the injector scaling or how to change it for different fuel being used)
 

On a 400hp RB, what benefits other than "it's not 30+ years old" are you seeing from the NZ Wiring Kit trigger setup?

If it were me going to change triggering, my belief would be to go for a crank trigger to remove the issues caused by what people claim is belt stretch etc, but that's from my understanding a much larger issue for super high power, rather than those in the 400hp and below club.

[robbo_rb180]

Cleaner signal so timing is more accurate at all rpm also found it to start more on first rotation but could also be I've nailed prime and crank fuel.
For under $400 and 30mins of your time, its a good solution especially once the optical sensor does start to play up you won't notice it until in higher rpm and it heat soaks.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

33 minutes ago, MBS206 said:

what benefits other than "it's not 30+ years old" are you seeing from the NZ Wiring Kit trigger setup?

When you track RPM vs time it's clean, unlike the OEM one, even with filtering there are ripples.

Means no random misfires or triggering issues at higher RPM, especially if you have big lift cams and a noisier valve train due to heavier springs.

[MBS206]

Interesting. I've not dived into the cleanliness of the factory CAS.

I'm curious if the variations are less of an issue if the OEM sensor were brand new. Optical sensors if they're starting to get dirt and crap into them as they're getting older would definitely cause issues as they age.

 

It's an interesting point to keep in the back of mind for me though

[GTSBoy]

5 hours ago, MBS206 said:

Interesting. I've not dived into the cleanliness of the factory CAS.

It's pretty filthy.

5 hours ago, MBS206 said:

I'm curious if the variations are less of an issue if the OEM sensor were brand new.

Same same. ie, fithy. The stock ECU has an amazingly good filter on the CAS signal.

[joshuaho96]

7 hours ago, djr81 said:

The plan is to get it out of the shed. The reality may fall some way short. But hope is as cheap as despair as they say.

Will go a wide band I think.

The coils are ok so maybe I’ll miss the $1500 on the R35 coils etc.

Im still on the fence about a trigger kit. The HKS one looks nice ($1k) - not sure how it works with the Link or if Link prefer something else.

Oil pressure is fine so I’m not that concerned there.

Fuel pressure I’ll have a think about.

The IAT got changed for the Link anyway as the old RB26 ones were really slow reacting and pretty poor.

The Power FC just worked. Wasn’t terribly refined but it just worked. Probably made a mistake replacing it really.

E85 isn’t available locally - it is 100+ kms away which puts it in the too hard basket.

Lastly I understand Tunecorp in Perth are pretty good so was probably going there.

 

As for turbos is there are new age -5 drop in replacement? Turbos have come a long way in 20 years, everyone is big single which is fair enough but I prefer the old school complication of twins. Wasn’t chasing more power (well, not much more) but more efficiency would be ok.

HKS trigger kit should be very easy to integrate with a Link. It's a 36-2 crank trigger. Hard part is finding the motivation to take off the timing belt and everything on the front of the engine to install it. You also need to cut out a hole in the oil pump housing so the sensor can read the trigger wheel. Changing out the cam sensor for a 24 tooth setup is probably good enough but as others have mentioned depending on what underlying assumptions are changed it becomes more of a problem. Reading the crank state off of the cam is an abstraction that works in the general case, but if you have an edge case it makes less and less sense.

There is a GTX2860 gen 2 that can take a compact 5 bolt housing so it's direct bolt on but I'm not 100% sure of what's involved. Peak compressor efficiency drops off a bit on these turbos vs -5s, 77% vs 73% but you get way, way wider region of operation. The -5s have a really strange surge line in their compressor map that is all over the place. If you think the hot side on the -5s aren't open enough you can try the Tomei T550B turbos which a local tuner seems to be happy with: