Cryogenics

[gtst25]

Any of you people tryed cryogenically treating engine parts whe building an engine? If you don't know what it is - nasa discovered it with the space shuttle in space - for some reason metals were coming back 300% stronger after a voyage. Apparently freezing metal to over -300degrees celcius does this! I read about it in a zoom article ages ago and just wondered is any angine builders use the treatment, as it is quite cheap - about 150 dollars to do a set of pistons.... I'd try it if using standard in say a rb30 with rb25 head

[Guest two.06l]

Any of you people tryed cryogenically treating engine parts whe building an engine? If you don't know what it is - nasa discovered it with the space shuttle in space - for some reason metals were coming back 300% stronger after a voyage. Apparently freezing metal to over -300degrees celcius does this! I read about it in a zoom article ages ago and just wondered is any angine builders use the treatment, as it is quite cheap - about 150 dollars to do a set of pistons.... I'd try it if using standard in say a rb30 with rb25 head

yeah we use cyrogenics widely in our engines/cars dont tell too many people about it though its a secret ssshhhhhh!.More details about it can be read in the latest Autosalon mag which explains the process in detail.Paul....DIRTgarage.

[Gav]

Any of you people tryed cryogenically treating engine parts whe building an engine? If you don't know what it is - nasa discovered it with the space shuttle in space - for some reason metals were coming back 300% stronger after a voyage. Apparently freezing metal to over -300degrees celcius does this! I read about it in a zoom article ages ago and just wondered is any angine builders use the treatment, as it is quite cheap - about 150 dollars to do a set of pistons.... I'd try it if using standard in say a rb30 with rb25 head

Oh dear - absolute zero is at minus 273 Celcius. Perhaps everything in Zoom (or your recollection of it as above) isn't totally accurate?

There is plenty of information on the net about the use of cryogenics and the (perceived) benefits of strengthening engine parts.

[Guest two.06l]

Oh dear - absolute zero is at minus 273 Celcius.  Perhaps everything in Zoom (or your recollection of it as above) isn't totally accurate?

There is plenty of information on the net about the use of cryogenics and the (perceived) benefits of strengthening engine parts.

mate unless you have proven nasa,nascar or even DIRTgarage wrong go back to bulgaria or disprove its worth.

[B-Man]

Had my rods cryo tempered and haven't broken yet

[Guest two.06l]

Had my rods cryo tempered and haven't broken yet

im thinking about getting my rod done too b-man.I think Stace would be keen.(300% harder).hehehaha Paul..DIRTgarage:aroused:

[Gav]

Oh....this is good.

two.O6l - so what are you saying - nasa has redefined absolute zero?

You cannot get colder than this point, which I stated above is minus 273 Celcius. gtst25's statement of minus 300 is physically impossible, and therefore incorrect.

I also have a problem with the claim of 300% strength increase, particularly if this number is from the same source as the minus 300 Celcius.

Cryogenics can offer good advantages for cast and forged steels. The very cold temperatures do indeed offer a slight increase in hardness (not to be confused with strength), however the big advantage is in stress relief through a solid metal body that may have been introduced during the manufacturing process.

Personally, I think that it's not a bad idea and quite cheap insurance, particularly on cranks and blocks (i.e. large metal volumes). Forged pistons and rods, by the very nature of the manufacturing process, are already stress relieved, and therefore unlikely to benefit for the treatment to the same extent.

I am in Bulgaria as an expatriate Metallurgist from Australia. Whilst I am presently working on a copper concentrator/smelter, I have previously worked on a iron/steel smelter.

I think that I know what I'm talking about in this case.

[Guest two.06l]

Oh....this is good.

two.O6l - so what are you saying - nasa has redefined absolute zero?  

You cannot get colder than this point, which I stated above is minus 273 Celcius.  gtst25's statement of minus 300 is physically impossible, and therefore incorrect.

I also have a problem with the claim of 300% strength increase, particularly if this number is from the same source as the minus 300 Celcius.

Cryogenics can offer good advantages for cast and forged steels.  The very cold temperatures do indeed offer a slight increase in hardness (not to be confused with strength), however the big advantage is in stress relief through a solid metal body that may have been introduced during the manufacturing process.

Personally, I think that it's not a bad idea and quite cheap insurance, particularly on cranks and blocks (i.e. large metal volumes). Forged pistons and rods, by the very nature of the manufacturing process, are already stress relieved, and therefore unlikely to benefit for the treatment to the same extent.

I am in Bulgaria as an expatriate Metallurgist from Australia.  Whilst I am presently working on a copper concentrator/smelter, I have previously worked on a iron/steel smelter.

I think that I know what I'm talking about in this case.

thanks for the quick lesson guru

[GTRgeoff]

Gav

being a Defence Engineer with a fetish for structural work and an interest in metallurgy I would be keen to hear your thoughts on just what may be the cause of the added strength. Would it be a secondary solid phase change due to the reduced energy levels of the atomic structure at those temperatures allow greater interstitial compaction, or is it a grain refining change like with HSLA steel? Just what composition steel is it ideal for? Low carbon? Will this be of any benefit to aluminium with silicon alloys as used in pistons? I'm a bit rusty at the moment on steel phases so a good discussion will do me the world of good and you seem the guy to lead the discussion. This isn't a come on. I'm serious and want your opinion.

[Guest two.06l]

Any of you people tryed cryogenically treating engine parts whe building an engine? If you don't know what it is - nasa discovered it with the space shuttle in space - for some reason metals were coming back 300% stronger after a voyage. Apparently freezing metal to over -300degrees celcius does this! I read about it in a zoom article ages ago and just wondered is any angine builders use the treatment, as it is quite cheap - about 150 dollars to do a set of pistons.... I'd try it if using standard in say a rb30 with rb25 head

I'm sure that gtst25 was using 'round' figures when he suggested 300 degrees? Surely everyone knows that a bath of liquid nitrogen is -273 degrees C. Isn't that common knowledge???

[GTRgeoff]

Not the sort of thing you would use round figures for, nor is a claim of 300% stronger. Stronger, harder, tougher etc are all pretty much known terminology, and everyone knows most steels lie at around 200-220GPa for Youngs Modulus and Tensile strength of around 300MPa Yield so how can you obtain such an increase?

[Guest two.06l]

Not the sort of thing you would use round figures for, nor is a claim of 300% stronger. Stronger, harder, tougher etc are all pretty much known terminology, and everyone knows most steels lie at around 200-220GPa for Youngs Modulus and Tensile strength of around 300MPa Yield so how can you obtain such an increase?

sorry einstein

[GTRgeoff]

Got anything technical to contribute...do so.

Perhaps you could explain in detail why you chose to cryo your rods, and what evidence was given to support the treatment.

[Gav]

two.O6l

Actually nitrogen, it will be a solid at that temp.

I'm far from a guru, but this IS within (or very close to) my field of qualification and 16 years post graduate experience. I wouldn't belittle, nor presume to know better, your profession.

skylinegeoff

You sound like the one who can give a more definitive answer as to the benefits of cryotreating. I am familiar with heat treatment of steels (although my qualification is a primary metallurgist, and not a secondary metallurgist), particularly when correcting incorrectly quenched castings. The re-heating and controlled cooling allows for even crystal/grain formation and allows for internal stresses to be evenly distributed. As you will know, machining may be required after this treatment due to movement.

Now, cryotreatment, as I understand, is a bit of a black art with many claims made by the companies who perform the service. The trouble is that I haven't been able to find much published by independent parties as to the benefits. Again, I don't believe that strength is added, rather that internal stress sites are relieved, and thus restoring maximum (and uniform) strength.

If you have any references, I would be interested in finding out more. I am considering getting my freshly prepped block and brand spankers crank done.

Cheers

Gav

[GTRgeoff]

Sadly I was more concerned with getting to the CFRP's and such and studying high energy impact effects on RHA (rolled homogeneous armour). We tend to try to break things rather than make them, and the defence academy (a somewhat exclusive UNSW campus) tends to focus on things military. I see this as a hole in my skill set so I'll be just as keen to study any literature.

Perhaps I should set aside some time tomorrow for a search and I'll get back with waht I find.

[Gav]

two.O6l

Actually nitrogen, it will be a solid at that temp.

I'm far from a guru, but this IS within (or very close to) my field of qualification and 16 years post graduate experience. I wouldn't belittle, nor presume to know better, your profession.

skylinegeoff

You sound like the one who can give a more definitive answer as to the benefits of cryotreating. I am familiar with heat treatment of steels (although my qualification is a primary metallurgist, and not a secondary metallurgist), particularly when correcting incorrectly quenched castings. The re-heating and controlled cooling allows for even crystal/grain formation and allows for internal stresses to be evenly distributed. As you will know, machining may be required after this treatment due to movement.

Now, cryotreatment, as I understand, is a bit of a black art with many claims made by the companies who perform the service. The trouble is that I haven't been able to find much published by independent parties as to the benefits. Again, I don't believe that strength is added, rather that internal stress sites are relieved, and thus restoring maximum (and uniform) strength.

If you have any references, I would be interested in finding out more. I am considering getting my freshly prepped block and brand spankers crank done.

Cheers

Gav

[Guest two.06l]

two.O6l

Again, I don't believe that strength is added, rather that internal stress sites are relieved, and thus restoring maximum (and uniform) strength.

Just have a look at that statement, a contradiction of terms i must say. My field of expertise is owning, running and maintaining a sucessful race team. Doing all the work bar tuning of the cars myself and as this is a site dedicated to this subject, any help, not baseless statements would be of assistance. The science geeks are on another forum, if you want to bamboozle yourselves there then go ahead.Not here.

[Gav]

I'm not going to argue over semantics, my point in the above statement was about restoring (cranks for example) to design strength. In otherwords, removing or correcting flaws. Good science and engine reliability are not divorced.

Ciao

[Merli]

I have a penis.

[4door_Sleeper]

this isnt exactly my area/field but I thought this may add to the basic understanding for some

Quantum theory asserts that atoms and other elementary particles can be thought of as waves. Einstein proposed that as atoms approach absolute zero (-273.15°C), the waves expand in inverse proportion to their momentum until they fall into the same quantum state and finally overlap, essentially behaving like a single atom. The phenomenon (Bose-Einstein condensate) could not be observed, however, until techniques were developed to reduce temperatures to within 20 billionths of a degree above absolute zero.

In 1995 Eric A. Cornell and Carl E. Wieman led a team that isolated a rubidium Bose-Einstein condensate under laboratory conditions; two experiments by different teams involving molecules were successful in 2003.

It is believed that this state of matter could never have existed naturally anywhere in the universe, since the low temperatures required for its existence cannot be found, even in outer space. The condensate may be useful in the study of superconductivity (the ability of some materials to conduct electrical current without any resistance) and superfluidity (the ability of some materials to flow without resistance) and in refining measurements of time and distance.