Cryogenics

[Guest two.06l]

I have a penis.

Get it treated cryogenically with mine Merli. Make it 300%stronger. We might even run a group buy on this one as there seems to be plenty of softc0cks about.

[B-Man]

LOL @ Merli

[BU5TER]

sounds good

[tomj]

i just hope it fails when around male test subjects.........

[DoughBoy]

I feel physically ill.

[4door_Sleeper]

Do you guys need to use any special lubricants as a result of your shotpleened and cryo treated ****s.

[B-Man]

I find that KY Racing lubricant works well

[GTRgeoff]

two.06l, (edited the bull out to stay on topic, the rest can stay in the quotes)

The goal in normalizing a metal is to refine the grain structure so that the metal becomes tougher, but this won't necessarily mean it becomes more rigid or brittle. So the question to be asked with cryo treating is "can I refine the grain structure without otherwise adversely affecting the materiel hardness?" Annealing will give good normalization (and so, toughness) but will also allow grain growth. In steel we want a small, fine grained structure so that micro cracking is opposed by the grain boundaries. HSLA steels (mentioned earlier) use low alloying percentages and extra working of the steel to develop the fine grained structure desired.

The purpose of linishing and shotpeening is to remove any surface tension stress concentrators to prevent microcracking. Polishing can also give this affect because as with shot peening the surface is compacted so there exists a compressed surface tension that opposes cracking which can only occur under tension. This is also why tensile structural members (stop laughing Merli!!!) should never be anodized as this creates surface tension.

Does the cryo treatment allow compaction of the molecular structure, so the smaller carbon atoms fill interstitial voids between the larger iron atoms? Does it enhance grain refinement? Hard to tell as I have found no supporting literature yet. Note: the increased molecular strength in alloys is created by putting odd sized atoms through the base element to create variations in the attraction forces, sometimes even causing interstitial voids but is somewhat too detailed for me to explain fully in a short post.

Finally BMan, I endorse the use of the "warming" KY as it reduces idling time for warmup

[Guest two.06l]

two.06l

regardless of your continued efforts to belittle the people trying to discuss the technology I will continue to attempt to make some valid points, but first allow me to provide some background. I have completed 19 years military service in combat, command and technical roles. I joined with a year 10 education and eventually gained a mechanics trade and later a Mechanical Engineering degree, we are often referred to as metallurgists but that is an overstatement. I have been active in the sports of cycling at the national level and Rugby at the highest level in Army. I also have combat exposure in hot environments (you know..bullets being chucked at you). Through my life I have self funded my motor racing with seasons in u2L sports sedans, rally, formula ford and now in sprints in my 25t with an engine I built and installed myself in my garage (machining was the only outsourced task). I have owned a number of successful businesses with turnover exceeding 2M AUD p/a and I recently managed a number of weapons acquisitions projects for defence with budgets of over 20M AUD. On top of this I have spent time working for a V8SC team as a volunteer to gain exposure and prepare for a race technology consultancy I intend to start when I retire next year. I am no poindexter with a clipboard and pocket protector but a keen racer with some knowledge. So enough of banging my own drum, I want to get this discussion back on topic without sledging and respect for the points of view offered. Yours as a race team owner is of equally high value so don't contribute to destroying a good discussion.

 

Sothen, lets discuss this as equals without the attitude. Hopefully we both learn a few things.

 

On topic:

The goal in normalizing a metal is to refine the grain structure so that the metal becomes tougher, but this won't necessarily mean it becomes more rigid or brittle. So the question to be asked with cryo treating is "can I refine the grain structure without otherwise adversely affecting the materiel hardness?" Annealing will give good normalization (and so, toughness) but will also allow grain growth. In steel we want a small, fine grained structure so that micro cracking is opposed by the grain boundaries. HSLA steels (mentioned earlier) use low alloying percentages and extra working of the steel to develop the fine grained structure desired.

 

The purpose of linishing and shotpeening is to remove any surface tension stress concentrators to prevent microcracking. Polishing can also give this affect because as with shot peening the surface is compacted so there exists a compressed surface tension that opposes cracking which can only occur under tension. This is also why tensile structural members (stop laughing Merli!!!) should never be anodized as this creates surface tension.

 

Does the cryo treatment allow compaction of the molecular structure, so the smaller carbon atoms fill interstitial voids between the larger iron atoms? Does it enhance grain refinement? Hard to tell as I have found no supporting literature yet. Note: the increased molecular strength in alloys is created by putting odd sized atoms through the base element to create variations in the attraction forces, sometimes even causing interstitial voids but is somewhat too detailed for me to explain fully in a short post.

 

Finally BMan, I endorse the use of the "warming" KY as it reduces idling time for warmup

I think you better go back and read the thread. It was your partner in crime GAV that started to belittle people. I was only giving positive responses to the question asked by someone who is obviously a lay person in the trade. I was merely stating to gav, unless he could disprove the worth of cyrogenic treatment, to take his negativity elsewhere. As gav and yourself have babbled and beat your chest there still has not been any proof brought forward, to prove it is not a worthy process. Most forms of american motorsport including but not limited to NHRA drag cars, NASCAR, formula atlantic and indy/cart class are ultlising this technology. The statement that was made was, if you do not have anything positive to contribute or some evidence or experience with this procedure, then wouldnt it be better to say nothing at all.Having a go at a bloke who didnt quite know what he was talking about is pretty lame(he even states this in his post). If you would like to boast about your credentials there is a thread "what do you do" im sure you could share your resume' in there. A cost effective process, we are happy with it. Enough said.

[Roy]

A cost effective process, we are happy with it. Enough said.

Thats my thoughts. Its cheap, it helps so good enough for me.

But i agree with the others that 300% is a little on the RICE side of the industry. Dont shoot me for saying this, but...That claim will be tied up somehow with the fact that the gradient of the Stress-Strain diagram may be changed giving it improved performance in the elastic region before plastic deformation occurs. I doubt it equates to a 300% increase in the Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) which is what ppl typically seem to assume the 300% increase is referring to.

I dont know...just some quick thoughts. :box:

[GTRgeoff]

Oh OK Paul, I was only trying to assure you I wasn't some 'dexter with booklearning as my only claim to fame. I take no responsibility for anothers comments, but obviously all us edumacated folk need to be kept in our place by the people who know what is really going on in the world of high technology.

A little close reading will show I'm trying to discuss the benefits, and how they occur at the atomic level. Companies wouldn't be making money from the process if there weren't benefits, and a few searches have revealed that -75C to -185C are the ideal temperatures for treatment. While I believe there are ways to correct people politely and without making them feel small, we shouldn't abandon intelligent discussion because of it.

I never consider not knowing or having experience a good enough reason to keep my trap shut. I believe you have to ask questions and challenge yourself to understand the answers to allow improvement. Anything less is going backwards as a professional in any field.

You don't have to pretend you know it all, but I am still interested in what substance you found to support your decision to cryo. You could then go on and discuss what benefits you have discovered. This is not a big secret, as many in the racing world often try to think about their pet "tricks of the trade". There are plenty of brilliant minds applying themselves to find a new edge. If you did it just because others do then say so. Provide some detail on parts, costs and turnaround times as well as the class of racing to allow some underrstanding of the workload of the treated parts.

So, once again, try to step down from the moral high ground and discuss......it's that easy. I will not be dragged into a slanging match....this is not national politics.

[GTRgeoff]

So to further add, here is a site with a little on the abrasive resistance benefits.

http://clickit.go2net.com/search?pos=2&ppo...yo_science1.htm

[GTRgeoff]

And one close to home that provides a nicely condensed summary.

http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/tes...esting-cryo.htm

[GTRgeoff]

But wait, there is more. And the benefits on polymers is a surprise to me. As well the figure of -300F may have caused the temperature confusion.

http://www.vtc.edu/mt/114/Research/Ferland...icTreatment.htm

[gtst25]

Sorry guys for using 'round' figures. I only read the article once - that was over a year ago now - a lot has happened in my life so I couldn't remember the exact figures. Just was wondering if anyone uses cryogenics - my question has been answered!

Thanks!!!

[Merli]

but first allow me to provide some background. I have completed 19 years military service in combat, command and technical roles. I joined with a year 10 education and eventually gained a mechanics trade and later a Mechanical Engineering degree, we are often referred to as metallurgists but that is an overstatement. I have been active in the sports of cycling at the national level and Rugby at the highest level in Army. I also have combat exposure in hot environments (you know..bullets being chucked at you). Through my life I have self funded my motor racing with seasons in u2L sports sedans, rally, formula ford and now in sprints in my 25t with an engine I built and installed myself in my garage (machining was the only outsourced task). I have owned a number of successful businesses with turnover exceeding 2M AUD p/a and I recently managed a number of weapons acquisitions projects for defence with budgets of over 20M AUD. On top of this I have spent time working for a V8SC team as a volunteer to gain exposure and prepare for a race technology consultancy I intend to start when I retire next year.

What in the flying fcuk does this drivel have ANYTHING to do with the thread? You did the same c0ck-beating stunt when you interjected into the GTR sump baffles thread, and I questioned your sources, as you didn't own a GTR yourself, or have any experience with GTRs.

I'm not sure what it is that makes you feel the need to beat your own chest like this so blatantly and COMPLETELY ridiculously to strangers on the internet, but I sure hope that it provided you with some penile extension, because all it did was make me :uhh: :uhh: :uhh: :uhh: :uhh: :uhh:

"highest level of army rugby"??? "national cycling"???? "combat exposure in hot environments"????

Are you for real? Cos you sure gave me a great laugh!

[letemlaf]

meloncholly's everywhere

[GTRgeoff]

Merli I have to say I am surprised at the tone of your post. While I can agree I was a bit over the top and could have been more brief, I was simply trying to establish that I am certainly no poindexter and that I am competent to discuss the detail of this cryogenic treatment. Maybe I am guilty of wanting people to know exactly who I am, certainly plenty of forum members in VIC have been interested and entertained with my life. I will apologise though even though you now know who you are dealing with and what level of technical understanding to expect. I never felt letting people know about who I am would receive such a response as it is genuine honesty and I work among people with similar credentials so no big deal. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. I have been in the military environment for a long time....too long I sometimes feel.

With regard to the sump baffle issue, I still see no cause for alarm, and certainly see no contribution from you toward evaluating the problem. I can say that most failures are looking more like driver abuse, lack of care, attention to detail lack of knowledge or just tired engines than some critical design flaw by nissan. I would also suggest I have considerably more experience swinging spanners inside the engine bay of GTR's than say....yourself.

I noted recently that you complained of the forum getting a bit hostile, with no friendly rivalry. Perhaps you could make an attempt to do your own bit to reinstate the friendliness on the forum, for the good of all.

[Warpspeed]

LOL, this could have been a really good thread..........................

But is strength the only criteria? how is hardness, and fatigue resistance effected ? Quite often something gained means something else lost.

Yeah it is amazing how the motor racing fraternity continue to prove science and engineering totally wrong. No need for mathematics either, winning races is all that really matters.

[GTRgeoff]

Thats the other amazing thing I have found out is the fatigue and wear resistence are improved also. Talk about getting something for [almost] nothing. Check some of the links I posted.