I knew some people were stupid but.......

[mcnamg]

"EURO STYLE NEEDED (Letter to Editor of Wheels Mag)

Holden has en engine for enthusiasts like us. Its the V8. :bahaha: Most Commonwhore buyers arent like us. They are fleet buyers. The last thing fleet buyers want is to have to pay a couple of thousand dollars extra for a high-revving, high tech, high power premium engine with four camshafts and variable cam timing etc. Or telstra Technicians. Or Bank Managers. Horses for courses, for gods sake. We have an engine that gives us what we value. They have a right to an engine that gives them what they value. The new Holden V6 doesn't. :bahaha:

Signed Stupid Commodoore Driver"

So lets gets this straight large fleets will look at the new commode and think hmm its costs more but uses less fuel has better emissions has more torque better response finally has an improved transmission and say to themselves this car is not something we value. It must be because there are no pushrods in here and the transmission doesnt clunk around like my neighbours mum who has a peg leg. Hmm ok takes commodoore driver out the back and puts miserable sod out of his misery :headshot: And people wonder why holden and ford can use engines that are older than most of us this guys just sums it up.

[mcnamg]

The flaming that the guy got from the editor was quite funny too

" Of course, Australia and its fleet managers are so averse to technology that they would never buy, say a Toyota. The Japanese had better rush the development of that two valve and pushrod V6 if they want to remain the nations no.1 brand much longer"

[LBR33]

These are from other forums

I've been researching Holden for quite a bit now, and its just making me hate them more and more. For those of you who wish to spout fact whenever somebody gives you that 'Ford Sucks' bullcrap; perhaps we should be discussing Holden's engineering skills?

1986: They needed a 6 that ran on unleaded. They didnt know how to make one. They bought Nissan's RB30 instead.

1988: Right they have a VL/Opel Monza that they have made to look bigger by turning it into a VN. Now they needed a new engine again. They still didn't know how to make engines so they asked Buick to send us some V6's. Were they shocked when they took them out of the box and the instructions said "For front-wheel drive applications only". Not to worry, some shoddy pipe reworking and a new clutch housing will fix that.

"OK. Now we need a four-speed auto, too" Again, they had to source them from the US and decided to get probably what I believe to be the worst auto I have experienced in my life.

1997: OK So they decided to grab the Omega platform because it came with free IRS. Little did they know that most manufactures stopped using trailing arms a LONG time ago. Not to worry. The Volkswagon Beetle look is sure to become popular again.

1999: "Damn this infernal 5.0L. We keep adjusting the fuel mixture but cant get anymore out of it. Let's get Chevrolet to send us some of their left over LS1's." They obviously were not too concerned about any issues relating to alloy engines.

That about sums it up.

PS: This isn't brand bashing at all. Its simply facts, guys. I can't see why we can't discuss the competition in whatever light because if at the end of the day, Ford make a better product.

So if we end up mixing 172 GM company's worth of parts, we'll end up with a Holden.

I call it Confetti.

** You win games. We'll win wars. **

Well, I'm bored, and in a shit-stirring mood, so it's time for you Holden freaks to hear a thing or two.

V8 supercars are completely different to what you can buy at the dealership. The motors in the V8 supercars aren't even the same as what the road cars have; they are restricted to 5-litre capacity. The only thing that a bomba-door V8 supercar and a bomba-door road car have in common is the shape. They even cut the bodyshell up to modify the suspension mounts, and weld extra bits in to make them stronger. HRT constantly wins because hole-den plugs millions of dollars into them every year, if any of the Ford teams had HRT's budget, I'm sure they would win a lot more too. Oh, and lets not forget that Holden race cars use FORD 9" diffs and FORD rear suspension, namely the Watts link rear suspension developed and used on all Falcons from XE up to AU.

holden is un-Australian. Their engines are made in America, by Chevy and Buick, (V6 engine was released in America in late 1970's). So too are the immensely crappy auto transmissions, which road testers constantly bag. HSV's are styled by some poofta Pom over in England. Even Tom Wilkinshaw(and if you know anything about hole-den, then you should know who he is) is an Englishman. That's right, think Prince Charles and you're close to the mark. holdens last Australian car was the WB ute. Don't try to tell me VT Commondoor, they were styled off some European Vauxhall shitbox. In case you don't know, Vauxhall is owned by Generic Motors, and is a poverty line car company, like Daewoo. Oh, that’s right holden bought Daewoo too didn't they. Next we'll be seeing Daewoo commondoors.

I'm a proud Australian, and I'm proud of FORD AUSTRALIA. Ford fully develops the Falcon in Australia. It is the ultimate Australian car. The Engines are Australian, (V8's are American design but manufactured here in Australia, and Tickford strips them down and hand modifies them), the transmissions are built and designed in Australia, and the diffs are made in Australia. Fords new XR6 turbo engine is the most powerful AUSTRALIAN motor every produced, yet the basic design of the motor dates back to the early 1960's. After saying this, Motor Magazine describes it as almost BMW like for smoothness and sound. They say it one of the sweetest sounding six cylinder engines your ever likely to hear. Oh, just to rub salt in the wounds, 4litre XR6T engine makes 240kw at 6psi boost. Holdens pathetic 5.7litre V8 make less, just 235kw. Ford keeps turbo boost this low so the gearboxes won't blow up. Ford Engineers admit the engine is capable of in excess of 300kw when the boost is wound up. What is the most powerful HSV?? I believe the 5.7litre GTS has 300kw, and they cost $90 000+. How much would is cost to by a 4LITRE XR6 turbo and have the boost pressure wound up, and a stronger gearbox fitted? Oh, probably $50 000, maybe $55 000. Cost of seeing brand new GTS driver CRYING? PRICELESS! Oh, and in the late

[Obakemono]

Whoa, somebody hates commonwhores.

BTW I think you ran out of room.

[mcnamg]

very informative post there

but i guess that thats the problem there holden is wayyyyy too good at public relations and unfortunatly there are a lot of sheep buyers in australia who just like to keep up with the jones'. The problem with a lot of car buyers in australia is that they do not make informed decisions and tend to just buy what ever everyone else is buying because it "must be good". If people actually took the time to go down to the ford and the holden dealership and try both cars they would be surprised with the differences.

Holden has always been plagued by build quality issues and this is always noted by the motoring journos who test the cars regularly and even after so much mention is made of this they keep on producing the same ugly black tupperware as usual.

The problem is that alot of these sheep watch the V8 super(blooper)cars and think that holden wins races so they must be good.

Look at the increase of sales of ford merchandise this year after ford won the series last year it shows how much the series refelcts on the sales of the companies vehicles when in fact these cars have as much in common with their road going counterparts as a nascar does.

I did not start this post as a holden bash nor am i bashing holdens myself I am merley pointing out that it is high time that holden picks up its act and starts to produce a world class car. If they want to contiunue exporting cars to the middle east and to the UK then they will need to work on improving their quality lest they give aussie made cars a bad name. With the reduction in price of many imported vehicles and the large choice now available to fleets and consumers I think that holden will soon begin to notice that their home market is going to slowly level off. I do not think holden i worthy of the number 2 spot in the aussie car industry holden is pretty much the commodoore car company.

Where is the direction of the holden brand? are they are european influenced brand or are they a korean influenced brand or an american influenced brand? Over the next year we will see another imported model of car become available in the aussie giants showrooms the c100 based softroader to compete with the territory and escape awd vehicles. There is no common links between all of these vehicles the astra and vectra and barina come from the UK, the original commode was a design copied from a UK design and americanised (ie add a huge ass and bad plastics and voila) the new C100 is a design made in korea (daewoo hmm quality), the jackaroo is an isuzu as is the rodeo, the cruze is a suzuki on steroids Its quite a mix really the common designs really mark them as a product that you can recognise. what holden needs to do is to create a range of cars that are unique have a high level of quality tell a story and provide enjoyment to drivers not some mish mash of crap as offered now

hmmm enoguh ranting i think

[INASNT]

Funny story when my 1 of my neighbours mates brought over a new CV8 he had bought earlier in the year to show him. It was like he had never seen a commowhore before, he was getting under the car and basically jerking himself off while looking at the car.

If only he knew it was just a regular commowhore with 2 less doors but which sells for double the price

[LBR33]

Holdens marketing department are among the best i have ever seen.

[mcnamg]

if anyone could sell ice to the eskimoes it would be holden

yeah beats me how anyone could call a monaro or anyone of the many stupid variants of the commondoor a totally different car they all started off the same until the guys in the deign studio took out their gas axes

who wants to buy a car from a company who has like 10 different models that are all the same car?

at least when ford built the territory it was totally different to the falcon other than like 20% common parts but the chassis on all the commonwhores is identical its all packaging

so they all get crap suspension crap transmissions and archaic looks

[Roy]

lol, i like commodores. The fact that Holden dont make / assemble 100% of the car owes more to economics then lack of ability / engineering skill.

Quick someone transfer 40k into my bank account and it would oh so easy to build a commodore that would blow away 40k gtrs around the track, but i still love my R32, and plenty of Fords.

I have to say im nowhere near as tribal as the average car enthusiast, how many R32 GTST owners would want to install a 20B in their car?

[auzdark]

hey, it could be worse

they could be moving in and mass buying nissans!

ive noticed that holdens seem to get recalled alot!

[Kaido_RR]

Funny story when my 1 of my neighbours mates brought over a new CV8 he had bought earlier in the year to show him. It was like he had never seen a commowhore before, he was getting under the car and basically jerking himself off while looking at the car.  

If only he knew it was just a regular commowhore with 2 less doors but which sells for double the price

ahahaa no! the cv8 isnt just a commowhote with 2 less doors.

the cv8 for has a LS1 350chevy which is the same engine as in the hsv (its different spec to the ss one)

It has Full leather intertor (i think u can pick up to 4colours)

And is just an all round better car than a 4dr commowhore.

I dont hate holdens, they make alright cars they got to do the best with that they got. for them to make all the parts is very pointless and would cost them so much more money

ohh yeah and a cv8 is like $50k, commowhore is 30 to 40k

[Intensevil]

lol, just keep letting the sheep buy the bomodores so we can blow them away with our "real" cars

[Roy]

lol, just keep letting the sheep buy the bomodores so we can blow them away with our "real" cars

LOL...the 2dr Skyline is a cut and shut 4dr...and im a proud Skyline owner, but lets nto get carried away here. I know and have seen a few Commodores that blow away imports...best example a VK Group A chopping us all at Eastern Creek, on one particular occassion there was even a guy in his black R34 GTR Nur that was blown away by the very same VK.

At the end of the day it has mechanical parts, so if you car to they can be very quick cars. Wasnt there an article a whiole ago with a mildy licked GTS GenIII keeping a mildly licked R34 GTR very, very honest. I also have an old Motor Magazine where the limited edition HSV GTS-R was quicker point to poin thru the twisty bits on a public road then the then new R33 GTR.

Anyway not saying they rule, just take your blinkers off ppl, otherwise youll sound like just another narrow minded car owner, just that you may own an import rather then a V8.

PS... an R34 GTT with equiv rubber, front mount, PFC and exhaust was 3 seconds quicker around Phillip Island then one of those big banger FPV GT Falcons...yeh Fords are so good :Oops: I cant recall the details but in the Bang For Buck and Performance Car of the Year Motor articles they normally get hammered by even the SV8 in outright lap times around circuits. :flamed:

[Ronin 09]

who wants to buy a car from a company who has like 10 different models that are all the same car?

I believe that the Skyline platform has many, many engine / transmission combinations, 2 and 4 doors. I'm not sure if the Stagea chassis is a stretched Skyline platform (I would assume so seeing that mmuch of the drivetrain drops into it), but often shares drivetrain and transmissions...

Hey that sounds like at least 10 different models that are all the same car?

BMW currently make 5 different 'models' - 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 series.

I'd take an M3 or M5, but ultimately it shares much of the same 'engineering' of the base 3 or 5 series cars. Do I care? No. I'd give soft squishy bits to own an M5.

I don't particularly like Holdens or Fords, but don't be too quick to dismiss as antiquated dinosaurs... how far back can we trace the RB block? And from a pure engineering perspective, there are both advantages and disadvantages of pushrods versus overhead cams.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it is just this type of narrow mindedness that breeds irrelevant argument and pointless slandering. We should accept that, as with all things in life, we are given choice. Because you choose a Skyline and someone else chooses a Commodore, it does not make you a superior being. I know I have been guilty of this arrogance before, but maybe we should try not take it so seriously, and chill out.

[Roy]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it is just this type of narrow mindedness that breeds irrelevant argument and pointless slandering.  We should accept that, as with all things in life, we are given choice.  Because you choose a Skyline and someone else chooses a Commodore, it does not make you a superior being.  I know I have been guilty of this arrogance before, but maybe we should try not take it so seriously, and chill out.

:werd: ... if i had some coin i woul love to build up a tuff VL Brock using all the Aussie icons, Harrop brakes, Motec twin throttle bodies, VELO seats you get the idea.

I looooove the sound of an 8 on song... closest i can get is me wastegate plumbed to atmosphere :elaugh:

[INASNT]

I looooove the sound of an 8 on song... closest i can get is me wastegate plumbed to atmosphere

I would love a 57 chev with a supercharged 350 and fully pimped out as my sunday cruiser!! :aroused:

[KamikazeR33]

most car companies like to use the same chassis for a different variety of car.

toyota does this with the supra and soarer - same chassis, just different body, susp, interior and engine

[mcnamg]

i didnt start this thread as post to bash holdens or their lack of engineering prowess but I guess that this is how it has turned out.

I dont dislike holdens I really dislike the attitude of some (and i underline the word some as in not all) holden drivers who i know who think that the holden commodoore is the be all and end all of motoring power. They think that their car will chop anything on the road and because everyone has one it must be good.

I know that this attitude of my car is the beat and so forth is not only held by holden drivers but many others in other brands but it seems to be voiced a lot louder by many in the generals stable.

as can be seen from the very first post i made i was merely point out the lack of knowledge of a particular driver who thought he represented about half of the holden drivers on the road and voiced a very stupid opinion. this is not my opinion i think that the new engine is great for holden and great for australia as it shows that australia wants to become a world class car manufacturing country. I just think that holden uses very suggestive and somewhat misleading advertising to wntice those who know just enough about cars to be dangerous to buy their vehicles. My Sidters BF for example is a holden nut he loves holden and his car is shrine to everything hrt. he almost cried when i told him the new holden v6 was going to be a 3.6 litre he was like but that would make it really slow wouldnt it? I then told him about the fact that it has more torque and more power than the 5.0l v8 in his vt berlina. he kept asking me how they could do it was it supercharged or turbod or something?

What this really shows is that a lot of these so called enthusiasts who think they know lots about cars are very narrow minded and really dont do any sort of research into the products that they love so much.

Personally having been in both ford and holden v8 offerings (BA and VY) i prefer the ford not for its outright power as the holden wins there most of the time but for the smoothness of the engine the ride and handling and also the much better plastics and overall finish of the vehicle.

I personally love V8's as well as turbocharged cars I just think that holden needs to really get their ass into gear and use some of their record profits that they are making and put them into bulding a world class car with good quality plastics good handling and not just strap an all new engine into an ageing platform. The GM group is huge i am sure holden could find lots of input from other groups to improve.

when i refer to commodoores having ten different models all of the same car i mean for example for example the holden adventra we all know that this a holden commodoore station wagon on steroids and with awd so why not call it such same again with the 4 doors utes they are commodoores why try to call them something different if they are not all new different models then they should still have the same name.

the stagea looks totally different to the skyline both inside and out so the fact that it may or may not use the same drivetrain is irrelevant.

same with bmw the 3,5,6,7 all look different and are all very different products.

what i was referring to is that holden should try and look for more visual differentiation in its products rather than making them all look like the same car with different wheels and bodykits. I can understand from a cost perspective why they do it but i hate the look of the new commodoore but love the idea of a V8 awd wagon but because it looks like a typical family car i would never buy it. i think if they had a few more different body styles they would appeal to a larger range of buyers. I can understand the need for a common design thread but this should be limited to grilles and lights not the entire shape of the vehicle

now if ford put a turbo or a v8 in the territory.... at least it doesnt look the same car the local telstra guy is driving.

[dojobi]

ahahaa no! the cv8 isnt just a commowhote with 2 less doors.

the cv8 for has a LS1 350chevy which is the same engine as in the hsv (its different spec to the ss one)  

It has Full leather intertor (i think u can pick up to 4colours)

And is just an all round better car than a 4dr commowhore.

I dont hate holdens, they make alright cars they got to do the best with that they got. for them to make all the parts is very pointless and would cost them so much more money

ohh yeah and a cv8 is like $50k, commowhore is 30 to 40k

Would you mind telling me how this is not the same as a commodore that's missing 2 doors? I mean, I'm sure there's a few little things here and there that make it different, but they essentially are the same car.

The LS1 engine is the same for all the commodores/monaros except for the GTS, which gets the C4B. Making a few tweaks to the computer and the exhaust doesn't make it a different engine. Even so, the Monaro engine is rated as having 245kW and the VZ SS 250kW according to Holden's site (they may not have updated it for the VZ Monaro, but even when they do, it'll only go to 250kW).

The full leather interior is an option on Commodores, so it's not particularly special.

And the SV8 costs 42K, SS costs 51K, the Monaro is 59K btw.

[makaveli]

Did you guy's hear that Skaiffe still ownes a r32 gtr in his garage.

What does that say....

take it easy

Mark