Power Fc Tuning issues

[T517zGTR]

I have recently done a fairly major build with my R33 GTR including Trust T517z turbos, 700cc injectors, pump, reg, Intercooler, z32 afms, pods, etc.

During the build I had a power Fc installed, although no one locally (North Queensland) can tune the thing properly! I have tried two places in Cairns and one in Townsville with little success. The car is running ruch, has a flat spot at 1700rpm and is not performing to potential. The package above should yeild 300 - 340 4wkw at 20 - 22 psi, which should be impressive compared to the 175 4wkw R33 GTRs run standard. I do not feel an improvement of this magnatude at all. I am confident that mechanically everything is fine - many compression tests, flow tests, etc have been done.

I could truck it/ drive it to Brisbane, Buy a DataLogit unit from NZ (Do they even help?) or get a tuner from a reputable garage to send me tuning info - Im not sure which way to go.

Im frustrated and at this time any advice would be muchly appreciated.

Thanks.

[R33vit]

Did you set the AFM to the Z32 in SETTINGS and change the injectors setting in the PFC?

[Sydneykid]

Hi T517XGTR, there is nothing tricky about tuning with a Powerr FC using the Commander. You read off the A/F ratios from the dyno lambda sensor and richen or lean it out to achieve the correct A/F ratios. It is a bit tedious with the Commander, as you have to run it in trace mode, note the map references and then hop into settings and change them. This is not reqally more difficult than a Microtech or other ECU that uses a hand controller to program.

It has been my experience that the Datalogit will enable tuners to use their favourite lap top to tune the Power FC. It makes it so simple that even an idiot tuner can't blame the Power FC. The dyno graphs show up the problems.

My suggestion, go back to the dyno shop that has the ability to display the boost, ignition timing and A/F ratios displayed together with power output. Ask for him to do one single power run (should cost less than $50) and print out the 3 graphs for you. Then put the graphs up here and 20 guys will be able to help you work out what is wrong.

Nine time out of ten as soon as you ask for the detial print outs, tuners know you are onto their slackness and tidy things up pretty fast.

Hope that is of some help

[Sydneykid]

Hi T517XGTR, there is nothing tricky about tuning with a Powerr FC using the Commander. You read off the A/F ratios from the dyno lambda sensor and richen or lean it out to achieve the correct A/F ratios. It is a bit tedious with the Commander, as you have to run it in trace mode, note the map references and then hop into settings and change them. This is not really more difficult than a Microtech or other ECU that uses a hand controller to program.

It has been my experience that the Datalogit will enable tuners to use their favourite lap top to tune the Power FC. It makes it so simple that even an idiot tuner can't blame the Power FC. The dyno graphs show up the problems.

My suggestion, go back to the dyno shop that has the ability to display the boost, ignition timing and A/F ratios displayed together with power output. Ask for him to do one single power run (should cost less than $50) and print out the 3 graphs for you. Then put the graphs up here and 20 guys will be able to help you work out what is wrong.

Nine time out of ten as soon as you ask for the detial print outs, tuners know you are onto their slackness and tidy things up pretty fast.

Hope that is of some help

[meggala]

other wise offer to fly some one up for the day to tune your car. that would beat shipping it down

cheers

[Sydneykid]

Did you set the AFM to the Z32 in SETTINGS and change the injectors setting in the PFC?

That's a good thought R33vit, I just assumed that the tuner would have set the basic parameters correctly. Maybe not :wassup: So that would be a good place to start, check all of the input parameters. Make sure it does have the right AFM's selected, the right injector settings, the right idle rpm aim, air con, turned off APexi boost controller kit, acceleration enrichment etc.

The next thing to do is drive around and watch the Commander (in Monitor mode). Not so easy, sometimes it helps to have a passenger or point a video camera at the COmmander and play it back later on. Slow motion and freeze frame can be useful.

Hope that helps some more

[Targa Tom]

Skyd is spot on when he says they are easy.... well easy to get close anyway.

There is also a ignition and injector fudge. This will alter the whole range by a percentage. You can do a run, change it in the direction required and back to back your new settings.

If they are an improvement, go and sit in the carpark and punch in the new settings... NB This "Tuning Mode" disables when you turn the ignition off.

Some reasonable dyno owners will let you do it while they wander off and do an oil change or something.... After all, if they go to school on your car, they are better off when the next PFC rolls in the door.

My guy is, and now he reckons PFC's are grouse. Previously he was trying to get me to shell out on Autronic or Motec. (These V8supercar guys just need to be led a little, eh skyd)

Tom

[GTR-Ben]

Can't wait to start doing mine

What do you guy think is a good amount of time for a tuner to get a car to a decent level of tune?

One guy down here with a 4WD dyno said 80hrs... i nearly died.

[The Alchemist]

well I've spent hours tuning my own car and it had taken a long time and thats with using a wide band O2 and datalogging with datalogit software. Me, I'm just learning though and being very careful at the same time

I must say, though, that I've made many improvements to the way me engine runs and got a real "feel" for what my set up likes and doesn't like.

As every car is different this is where the experience that good tuners have can make the job a bit shorter especially if their familar with both the engine type and the computor controlling it.

I can say, from my own experience , R32 GTR, that the PFC base maps are miles out! The lean cruise runs around 13.5: 1 instead of 15:1 between 1600rpm and 3200rpm load zone 3 to 6, it is also way lean when coming onto boost like 14:1 instead of 13.5 to 13:1 , and as soon as it hits boost load zone 13 and up it so rich that it blows black smoke out the back and by 4500rpm its heading towards 10.5:1 ! And thats just fuel

Ignition timing is also miles out (retarded) esp at the bottom end between 1200rpm and 2000rpm @ light throttles. This could explain your flat spot. Up the top it way to advanced causing detonation at around 4800/5200rpm on 96 octane. I had to pull out 8 degrees at this point Load 14 /15/16 to stop it....

This is just what I've learnt from basic experimentation... I have had it on a dyno too just to check I was heading in the right direction and I was So far I have 200rwkw at 7200rpm at 14 psi and a very economical car at the same time lean cruise 15:1 at 100km in 5th .

Mike

[Sydneykid]

Can't wait to start doing mine

What do you guy think is a good amount of time for a tuner to get a car to a decent level of tune?

One guy down here with a 4WD dyno said 80hrs... i nearly died.

About 80 hours is right if you were starting from scratch, but since the Power FC's have the basic set ups already done, you save about half that. Them the tricky stuff like air con idle up, power steer compensation, cold start and run etc etc are also already done and that's about half of what is left. So I usually reckon on 2 days, but it really depends on how modified the car is and how well it is done. You can spend hours looking for a problem before you even get to start tuning.

In order to test cold start and run for example you really have to have the car overnight so it is stone cold. Even then you really have a small window in which to check everything, they warm up so fast. Imagine if you had to start from scratch, it might take 3 or 4 mornings to get every thing right.

Tuning for power is really pretty easy compared to the other stuff you have to do. The stuff that makes a car "nice" to drive in all conditions. That's where car manufacturers spend a lot of their time. It's the main reason I like Power FC's they are pretty "nice" out of the box. Although they are tuned rich for safety and a bit advanced (they have 100 octance fuel), but even that is getting less with our 98 octane getting better quality.

[The Mafia]

sydneykid, are you sure that the powerfcs are tuned advanced? Because I threw my PFC in and put in 95 octane fuel (nothing higher here) and went for a strap after all of the self tuning and learning, and no detonation.

The knock level on the graph I have seen no higher than 10 100, but it did hit like one tiny spike to 40 100 once, in third gear full load at about 5000rpm.This has only happened once.

I use the overall timing compensation, and advance it 5 degrees, and the car runs so much better, but still no detonation. I can't hear it, or feel it, or see it on the HC.

What else should I be looking out for?

[BBQ]

The difficulty with living up here in the far north, Is there is no one with a 4 wheel drive dyno.

[Sydneykid]

sydneykid, are you sure that the powerfcs are tuned advanced? Because I threw my PFC in and put in 95 octane fuel (nothing higher here) and went for a strap after all of the self tuning and learning, and no detonation.

The knock level on the graph I have seen no higher than 10  100, but it did hit like one tiny spike to 40  100 once, in third gear full load at about 5000rpm.This has only happened once.

I use the overall timing compensation, and advance it 5 degrees, and the car runs so much better, but still no detonation. I can't hear it, or feel it, or see it on the HC.

What else should I be looking out for?

Let me start with, all engines are different, add that to the fact that once you start modifying stuff they become even more different. The generalisation with Power FC's in R33 GTST's is that they are a bit rich and a little advanced. But you can change that by doing mods. What's rich at 200 rwkw, may not be rich at 240 rwkw. What's too advanced at 1.3 bar may well be OK at 1 bar.

As for timing, I am a firm believer in having the ignition timing as far advanced as the engine will take. They make a bit more power that way but they also liven up, lose some lag, improve the throttle response. So my suggestion is as always is run as much advance as the engine will take. If want a safety margin, use fuel, run it a tad richer than ideal.

What t to look for, the things you said, pinging (noise), detonation on the Commander. Plus I would whip the plugs out, straight after a hard run and take a look for any signs of pre ignition.

Since it will take some more total advance, I would suggest a quick check with a timing light to confirm CAS accuracy. Then hop into the ignition maps and work your way through those. If it takes 5 degrees everywhere, chances are it will take more than that in certain maps, Be carefull in the boost building zone from ~3,500 rpm to ~6,000 rpm, a degree or two either way makes a lot of difference.

Hope that helps

[The Mafia]

I've got only one thing to say.

Fcuk you are awesome. Thanks.

The difficulty with living up here in the far north, Is there is no one with a 4 wheel drive dyno.

There is a 4wd dyno here in mackay, and the tuner is very very good. He knows his shit.

Let me know if you want anymore details

[Sydneykid]

The difficulty with living up here in the far north, Is there is no one with a 4 wheel drive dyno.

We didn't have a 4wd dyno for many years, the standard trick was to simply pull the ATTESSA fuse and drop the front tailshaft. It only takes a few minutes. It is also great fun to drive a high power GTR in rwd, you need to do it once in your life. :wassup:

[GTR-Ben]

About 80 hours is right if you were starting from scratch, but since the Power FC's have the basic set ups already done, you save about half that.  Them the tricky stuff like air con idle up, power steer compensation, cold start and run etc etc are also already done and that's about half of what is left.  So I usually reckon on 2 days, but it really depends on how modified the car is and how well it is done.  You can spend hours looking for a problem before you even get to start tuning.

In order to test cold start and run for example you really have to have the car overnight so it is stone cold.  Even then you really have a small window in which to check everything, they warm up so fast.   Imagine if you had to start from scratch, it might take 3 or 4 mornings to get every thing right.

Tuning for power is really pretty easy compared to the other stuff you have to do.  The stuff that makes a car "nice" to drive in all conditions.  That's where car manufacturers spend a lot of their time.  It's the main reason I like Power FC's they are pretty "nice" out of the box.  Although they are tuned rich for safety and a bit advanced (they have 100 octance fuel), but even that is getting less with our 98 octane getting better quality.

Well I have ripped out all the cold idle and A/C so should save some time..

[R33vit]

sydneykid, are you sure that the powerfcs are tuned advanced? Because I threw my PFC in and put in 95 octane fuel (nothing higher here) and went for a strap after all of the self tuning and learning, and no detonation.

The knock level on the graph I have seen no higher than 10  100, but it did hit like one tiny spike to 40  100 once, in third gear full load at about 5000rpm.This has only happened once.

I use the overall timing compensation, and advance it 5 degrees, and the car runs so much better, but still no detonation. I can't hear it, or feel it, or see it on the HC.

What else should I be looking out for?

I been lookin at the Datalogit software for the RB25DET and there is a lot of differences between PFC Program Version's.

Eg Ver 2.20E has a lot more advance timing in load points 14-16 than version 5.10.

Bottom line is different program version of PFC have different base maps. In some cases not alot in other cell points there is a big diffrence.

[krawler]

FWIW, Autotech was looking at letting people send them there .DAT files (generated from FC Datalogit IIRC?)... They would then fix it all up, then email it back to you for a small fee. Then you just upload it to the ECU.

Dunno all the details, cause I'm just a dumb fridgie.

www.autech.net.au might answer some queries, or just email him or whatever.

[R33vit]

FWIW, Autotech was looking at letting people send them there .DAT files (generated from FC Datalogit IIRC?)... They would then fix it all up, then email it back to you for a small fee. Then you just upload it to the ECU.

Dunno all the details, cause I'm just a dumb fridgie.

www.autech.net.au might answer some queries, or just email him or whatever.

Cant see how they would fix your maps without the car on the dyno to reference.

[R33vit]

Ok I just had a look at autech. Seems they need the .log files as well. If I had the datalogit sofware and cable to do a log, then I can fix them myself