Qs for RB20 Owners

[Roy]

Namely Clint32 and a few others that actually have decent sized hair dryers on their RB20s.

Forgetting the crappy power delivery etc etc, how did the std engines handle the power? Is the figure of 220rwkws for safe running fictional or a decent rule of thumb.

Originally i thought the TD06-20g would have been spot on as the biggest turbo a std RB20 can use....and make about 240-250rwkws at about 1.3-1.4bar.

Im not so gung ho now as a recent run of sh1thouse luck has left me broke, and now fear that another instance of arriving home after a track day with a DOA engine will well and truly break the bank. ie, have to whore myself off to the local deviants, though i dont think im good looking or young enough for that anymore :Oops:

About the only RB20 tale i have ever heard are the RB20 / Zoom tales of the JMS TD06 and the R31 Wagon woth the HKS 2540/2530 which made 240rwkws. But i dont have 100% faith in those figures or the fact that those cars/turbos didnt have a huge appetite for engines.

I should have pulled the pin on the RB20 thing 2 months ago liek the orginal plan and gone for the RB31. The $4k wasted on farking around with my current setup would have had me on my way to a good strong engine :Bang:

...dont you hate it when you try to be sensible and settle with what you got, only to find your not actually settling, but spending more:rant:

[bbenny]

Yep you really blew it.

just get a 2530 and start driving!

But i think that the TD06 should be making at least 240-250rwkw with about 1.3bar. considering the power all us HKS 25series ppl are getting.

Do you think that maybe the RB20 will start to choke up at anything more than 240rwkw.

But i totally agree, the amount of money we have spent on our current RB20's could easily have paid for an RB31 or RB26 conversion - which is still looking like a plan.

But then the question remains, would you really stick with the TD06 20g on an RB31?

[JH32]

I'm hoping for about 250rwkw with the T67

I'll just run it til it pops and then rebuild it with some forged internals

[Clint32]

Hey i had 230rwkw or so for 12 months on 15psi or so boost and had no engine troubbles, but when i pulled the engine out was lacking a little compression i believe, they are a very strong engine but it depends what you start with.

Once you start buliding engines its always a case of why not spend a little extra, whats another $500 here another $1000 there and it gets crazy, but to do it all properly, engine build, turbo, cooler, full ecu etc nd its easy to blow well over 20k to do a good job thats not over the top, it never ends. set a goal or $$ you wont to spend and work to it

[Roy]

Once you start buliding engines its always a case of why not spend a little extra, whats another $500 here another $1000 there and it gets crazy, but to do it all properly, engine build, turbo, cooler, full ecu etc nd its easy to blow well over 20k to do a good job thats not over the top, it never ends.  set a goal or $$ you wont to spend and work to it

Thats why when i first had the cam/head problem a few months back i did the numbers and had even lined up the parts. But then i laughed at what i was about to undertake as realistically the power the RB20 makes with the TD06 is plenty for what i want. How reliable though?

Its just that now that my good, original engine is out of the car...im now guessing with wrecker motors. Im about two weeks from pulling the pin on the whole car thinfg, everytime i get something sorted hurdles get thrown in front of me, hurdles that need not be there.

[Bl4cK32]

my 2c...which aint much

buy a rb30 bottom end from wreckers (mine cost $100 )

buy an rb25de head (mine cost $750)

do a std bottom end rebuild of the rb30 using same pistons, just hone, new rings and bearings ($850?)

bolt on head to block, drill tap tensioner, $30 timing belt, 2x rb30 tensioners ($80 ea)

how much so far?...using rb20 sump, manifolds, turbo (i am to start ) water pump, rb20 oil pump....no costs here.

redrill engine mounts to lower engine, plug in rb20 sensors, mod front pipe.

done...turn key and watch the rb30 rumble for under 2k.

But as they say...the spending never stops once it starts....i wish i had kept to the plan above and watch people grin

Seriously though i had the same drama as you. Rb20 blew, and went the rb31. Never look back now

[Sydneykid]

my 2c...which aint much  

buy a rb30 bottom end from wreckers (mine cost $100 )

buy an rb25de head (mine cost $750)

do a std bottom end rebuild of the rb30 using same pistons, just hone, new rings and bearings ($850?)

bolt on head to block, drill tap tensioner, $30 timing belt, 2x rb30 tensioners ($80 ea)

how much so far?...using rb20 sump, manifolds, turbo (i am to start ) water pump, rb20 oil pump....no costs here.

redrill engine mounts to lower engine, plug in rb20 sensors, mod front pipe.

done...turn key and watch the rb30 rumble for under 2k.

But as they say...the spending never stops once it starts....i wish i had kept to the plan above and watch people grin

Seriously though i had the same drama as you. Rb20 blew, and went the rb31. Never look back now

That's exactly what I did with the first RB30DET, rebuilt standard RB30E bottom end and R32 (no VVT) RB25DE top end. For $2K and 475 BHP on the engine dyno, it was the best bang for buck engine I have ever had. Used all the RB20DET sensors, manifolds, sump, engine mounts etc and then sold the RB20DET top end for $300 to a guy who put it on an RB30 bottom end, go figga :wassup:

Roy, you should really think about it. I reckon your Trust kit would work a charm on an RB30DET.

[Roy]

my 2c...which aint much ...  

LOL, im accepting 2c dontaions at the moment.

Nah things aint that bad, but the money im spending on the car is for the first time eating into money put aside for other things and i dont like it.

I remember reading about you and claiming that you would do the RB30 for less then 2K :Oops: I suspect id be like you though id end up with rods as well oh and gearbox, and twin plate clutch, of and 740cc injectors, oh and the HKS Type S cooler will be too small Say goodbye to 10grand

[Bl4cK32]

last count im uo to 12k...and the r33 box just decided it needs a rebuild....theres $1500 i didnt see coming.

But really, stick to the plan and see the results.....then decide for any extra mods.

edit/ my bottom end minus the forgies (same exact build specs) would cost a little over $1800 for it to be built. Very reliable for 250 - 275 rwkw....and snot loads of torque

[Ahh32]

hey Roy. i was in the same vote 3 Months ago i ended up going for a STD rebuilt RB20. only because a complete RB26 head was 4K+.

the reason i didn't use forgies was because i reckon i can get reliable 250rwkws out of it with a perfect tune and good support system.

[Sydneykid]

LOL, im accepting 2c dontaions at the moment.    

Nah things aint that bad, but the money im spending on the car is for the first time eating into money put aside for other things and i dont like it.

I remember reading about you and claiming that you would do the RB30 for less then 2K :Oops:  I suspect id be like you though id end up with rods as well oh and gearbox, and twin plate clutch, of and 740cc injectors, oh and the HKS Type S cooler will be too small   Say goodbye to 10grand

That's the problem, no matter what you have you always want a bit more. The trick is learning to say NO to yourself. :headspin:

BTW the $2K included the fitting cost, the engine itself ready to go in cost way less than $2K. The turbo was an old, well used T04 so I had a kit put through it, that's also included in the $2K.

I used the envelope method. I got the best quote I could for the bits and machining, then wrote that suppliers name on an envelope. I put exactly that much money in the envelope and sealed it up. When I paid for the stuff I gave them their envelope. The envelopes were the discipline, to make sure I didn't keep asking for a bit more and a bit better and a bit bigger. Guess what, it came in on budget.

Hope that helps

[Roy]

That's the problem, no matter what you have you always want a bit more.  The trick is learning to say NO to yourself. :headspin:  

LOL...You probably remember the RWD traction discussion. Then i said NO, RB20 with TD06 is enough...and 4k later the car is off the road That 4k would have been most of the building blocks for an animal engine.

I have put $500/month aside for something in case the RB20 goes bang again. Hopefully it will last 6 months.

[dangerous_daveo]

After reading this, I dont even want to waste money even fixing anything on my RB20!

As I say, try and learn from others mistakes, its cheaper. (not trying to sound mean or anything)

[discopotato03]

Yeah same here , the FJ's a bit rattly but starts every time and only gets normal maint . Its often parked next to the good FJ but I'm determined to put my time and money into the "Masey Furgeson" and not be sidelined .

LOL Cheers A .

Roy would it be worth your while to buy an early RB25DE , fit DET pistons and sling it in ? Its a cheap way to get into an engine with more potential than an RB20 .

[Roy]

dangerous_daveo ...

I should mention im still not 100% convinced they are no good. My original RB20 was a good strong engine. It failed as a result of ME putting in a cam that seized, nothing wrong with that engine, no blow by, didnt use oil, quiet (after an engine flush) and upon inspection was a nice clean engine. The bottom end will serve me as a spare if i have another bottom end prob

So the engine didnt fail, and my experience tells me they are definitely good for 150,000kms with 150rwkws and the 20,000kms with 200rwkws. In those 170,000kms it took a good beating with a fair few kms on the track. (somewhere between 2,000-3,000kms, with a few laps with engine light on , but hey i had a passeneger and we were catching a 996 Porka , oh and we did overtake it and gap it a little before i backed off to let temps normalise:cheers: )

So then another RB20DET went in, and again i think the reason it failed was once again caused by me the driver. :Oops: and circumstances conspiring against me.

The engine had done about 100kms and i started driving it hard, where it had some ignition problems causing a big miss. Now big misses at 6,000rpm aint going to be good for any engine. I knew the sump had a big dent near the pickup, but i was so sick of the car being off the road i drove it anyway. I had spent $250 to participate in an event and i didnt want to once again forfeit my entry fee

So was driving in the event for about 10-15kms under full load with the miss until it got so bad the engine wasnt reving out cleanly (It was an intermittent 10-15kms, but it was still at pretty high speeds and reasonable amounts of engine load, as it was coming and going, and i would back off everytime it returned...but i did try to drive away / thru the problem )

So when it called it quits (spun bottom end bearing), i think it would be a bit quick to blame the engine design. BUT other ppl, many whom know more then me say "its an RB20, what do you expect with that turbo setup?" ...with straight faces.

But thats all heresay that the engines crap themselves for no reason, usually you can attribute it to something and i suspect it has been a result of outside factors, not the simple fact its an RB20.

But if ppl tell me they have had an RB20 well tuned with all the support systems running 240rwkws, and the engine simply failed then i will take that on board.

Im running out of patience thats all.... when i get my car back with another std RB20DET ill do what i should have done last time.

Make sure there isnt anything dodgy like dented sumps, drive it calmly for 500kms. Dump the oil (the engine has likely sat idle for 1-3 years ?!?!?!) and then do another 1,5000 kms and do an engine flush and change the coolant again.

Then after i have done about 3,000-5,000kms on the engine i may actually start to lean on it a little more once in my own mind i have done enough kms on the engine to know its runs ok and that i have taken reasonable means to flush all the shit from coolant / oil galleries etc etc.

The RB20 will ride again....:wassup:

So a quick recap,:

Engine 1 - DEAD because of mentally defective owner

Engine 2 - DEAD because of mentally defective owner driving car when it had some obvious probs

Engine 3: Hopefully i can keep it in my pants long enough to give the engine a chance.

Oh and I ddint start this thread to bash the RB20, i still think they are the strongest RB engine when thrashed in relatively std form, as they dont seem to have the bottom end prob of the RB26 when thrashed at the track, or the ring land failure of the RB25.

But ppl go all quiet when they have probs and other guys dont hear about them, so i figured id air my laundry and see if between all the owners of R32s we can get a feel for how far to go based on ownership, not heresay.

After all its a DISCUSSION FORUM

[Bl4cK32]

dont get me wrong, i loved my rb20 too...first car ive had that pulled the same even with 3 mates in the car

Only reason it blew was because someone overtightened the damn idler bearing bolt. Either way if it still was going, i would of had spent a lot on it insted of the rb31det route....so i could of had a 10k rb20 or a 10k rb31det....im glad i went the way i did though..

Troy, have you been for a drive in a rb30det yet?...Im telling you for a track car the motor is UNFKNBLVABL!!! Imagine the power your old motor at full song had...now picture having the similar power BEFORE boost kicks in, then a larger thump in the arse after!

Not trying to talk you out of the rb20, just offering a different avenue

[Roy]

dont get me wrong, i loved my rb20 too...first car ive had that pulled the same even with 3 mates in the car

 

Only reason it blew was because someone overtightened the damn idler bearing bolt. Either way if it still was going, i would of had spent a lot on it insted of the rb31det route....so i could of had a 10k rb20 or a 10k rb31det....im glad i went the way i did though..

 

Troy, have you been for a drive in a rb30det yet?...Im telling you for a track car the motor is UNFKNBLVABL!!! Imagine the power your old motor at full song had...now picture having the similar power BEFORE boost kicks in, then a larger thump in the arse after!

 

Not trying to talk you out of the rb20, just offering a different avenue

And im not comparing the two, other then from the aspect of fun : dollar ratio. And i hope im not coming across as defensive or argumentative, its just a chit chat

I havent been for a ride in an RB31, but i am in Adelaide on Monday/Tuesday I dont doubt they are great, way better then the RB20. And on the track whilst i want to go quick, it aint really racing so i have the same kinda fun whether im doing 1:10 or 1:05s .

I think on the track id rather the peaky power delivery fo the Rb20 because i imagine it would make the car a little more difficult to drive, so keeps me more intersted in learning rather then racing.

I dare say if i spent 10k on engine, clutch/box etc i wouldnt be enjoying the track days near as much because all of a sudden the car im driving represents a big investment.

Yeh anyway, i just think the RB20 gets sold short, not saying its the equal of the other RB engines, but i dont think its near as bad as people make out. Ever heard of an RB20 owner with a properly sorted turbo setup liek a 2835/3037 etc. Im just ineterested to see how they go. SR20s do ok,

[Sydneykid]

Hi Troy, you are absolutely right about RB20's, for a whole pile of reasons there is very good argument that standard they are the STRONGEST RB. Lower compression ratio than RB25's, so they don't have the detonation propensity. Shorter stroke with very strong rods. Short stroke = shorter crank throw = lighter crank, so stronger crank given the same material and manufacturing processes. Large big end bearing sizes so lower lower surface tension for the same rpm. More metal around the bores in cylinder block and more metal around the combustion chamber in the cylinder head. No VVT to complicate the oil feed system.

Not strength issues but RB20 advantages none the less are top feed injectors so easy to upgrade and the same inlet and exhaust as RB25 (ie; nothing lost there). Then there is cost, buying an RB20 is definitely cheaper than the other RBDET options.

Really the RB20DET has many advantages and only one dissadvantage and that's capacity. If you can live with that, then there is no reason an RB20DET won't satisfy YOUR requirements.

BTW; ours is up to 170,000 ks' untouched inside with 225 rwkw. So go for it.

[R31 POWER]

Above posts sound good but one thing I don't like is the dent in the sump bit coz mine has one I should pull my finger out and get it fixed.

[dangerous_daveo]

I wasnt really having a go. Just for what I want, and bang for buck, rb3Xdet is probably the best option (and I have a cefiro.. so extra weight there )

Its good to read up on different peoples oppinions and expericencs tho. Id still like to see what I can get out of the RB20. I just still need to do some research, as I dont want to have to buy two sets of turbos, two sets of this, two sets of that, just to do both engines.