Stagea Suspension

[Wazmond]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

I think you'd be surprised. The quality of the damping is very important (which MCA obviously take some care over). This is the reason I do not like Teins, because even with 8/6 kg springs, I think their damping is rubbish.

MCA are in the camp of "very high spring rate, low ARB rate". Hence the really heavy springs on their gear. I think Gary's approach was from the opposite camp, which is to keep the spring rates lower and control roll with bars - although granted my only association with him is wrt to his B6 based setup for street Skylines and for that he was constrained to use off the shelf stock format springs and stock format mass market dampers (albeit revalved for improved performance). It's very much a horses for courses thing though, as both approaches are ultimately compromises that will favour one usage model over another, and they do not end up being totally equivalent to each other.

Yeah, they mentioned that its not worth upgrading from the stock sway bar due to how their coilovers are set up. 
Still learning more about the suspension etc, but with Garys approach of lower spring rates and controlling roll with bars and obviously improved dampers, wouldnt that be like softer ride and more roll but with the sway bar, it keeps the roll to a minimum/lower amount?
Where as MCA's approach of stronger springs, and dampers adjusted for the springs, wouldnt that be a harder ride (against bumps, going straight etc) and less roll, and the stock sway bar does its thing but the coilovers does the majority of the work?

Its a daily so im in favor of a softer ride while normally driving but keeping the roll to a minimum while turning etc. Or am I getting my idea of suspension completely wrong?

 

37 minutes ago, Stick180 said:

This is completely different to their OG approach. I have the R&D/guinea pig  set of MCA Blue coilovers in my stagea from about 9 years ago. Josh started with a rough R33 spec valving figure and spring rates (which was 10/8kg). We went for a whiteknuckled test drive through the Landsborough hinterland before he decided needed more valving and less spring. Eventually settled for 7/5kg springs and a bunch more valving (unsure of figures). I was running on some Tein Superwagon coilovers at the time and the difference was night and day. And after going for a ride with a fellow stagea chum who runs BC golds, i still believe the MCA Blues i have are still by far a better ride.

As for Voston, as far as i am aware, that is their budget brand and nothing like the Pro series they offer now, or anything like the Blue/Red or Gold series back in the day

I was looking at the Pro Comfort, it has the price hike of it being the MCA Pro series ( extra $400, total $2490 ). Ive read people saying the blue/red/gold series(and the blues being more favorable from the past threads) but what would those be nowadays? 
What was the drive difference between the BC golds and the MCA Blues you got?

[Duncan]

Unfortunately this is a bit like arguing if you prefer blondes or brunettes....you will get people who strongly hold either view.

My observation is I have had good results racing on MCA golds (spring led) but personally find Gary's approach of lighter springs and heavier bars is more predictable over mixed or rough surfaces like in rally (or an Australian road)

[Stick180]

18 minutes ago, Wazmond said:

I was looking at the Pro Comfort, it has the price hike of it being the MCA Pro series ( extra $400, total $2490 ). Ive read people saying the blue/red/gold series(and the blues being more favorable from the past threads) but what would those be nowadays? 
What was the drive difference between the BC golds and the MCA Blues you got?

Personally, i'd be dropping the extra $400 for the Pro series. I believe (at least during their original conception) they were based off the Blue series but have evolved with apparent new valving tech etc etc. 

The BC's were super harsh ride wise, felt like the road was covered in potholes almost (this with damping at softest), but they did feel a bit more pointy initially through corners, i felt like there was considerably more understeer at turn in on tighter radius corners (but this is not really a like or like, considering the difference in wheel size, tyre choice, track temp etc etc) 

[GTSBoy]

The main argument for lighter ARBs is that ARBs reduce the independence of the suspension. They link the left wheel to the right wheel. The lighter the ARB is, the less this linkage. When you hit a significant one wheel bump on a car with lighter springs and heavier ARBs, more of that disturbance gets transferred across to the other wheel. Whereas, with a heavier spring and lighter ARB, the impacted wheel is the only one that reacts to the hit.

If you hit a significant two wheel bump, then lighter springs are the only things taking the bump as the ARB is not involved (both ends move up/down together). Then the spring rates alone determine how the car takes the hit. Softer springs (to a degree) will be more comfortable. Harder springs will accept the energy input better with less total compression (but obviously possibly more undesirable and probably uncomfortable body movement).

The other significant thing to remember is that spring rate is really about coping with the rate at which loads are input to the suspension. Driving around slowly? Then any bump you hit is going to feed load into the suspension at a low rate, and you can use a low rate spring and with a low rate spring the damper has to less work to control the spring's motion. This describes street usage because it is mostly illegal to go fast or drive aggressively enough to require handling fast load inputs. But if you're going at racetrack speeds (or rally, or anything where going fast over whatever the surface is) then the loads get applied faster and you need to control that input with more spring rate, and then the dampers have to do more and that's why it all starts getting expensive. Anyway, the point of all that is, it's complicated, depends on usage and surface quality, and it's why proper race cars have a lot of adjustment and will even completely swap out springs and dampers when going from one track to another. One track might be smooth, and so even if it is a fast track there won't be rapid load input. Another track might be as rough as guts, or it might have a couple of sets of tight esses on it that require the car to heave from side to side. The rates at which loads get fed in will be different on those two tracks and probably require completely different setup.

Three paragraphs and 400 words are nowhere near enough to convey how complicated this subject is and also I am nowhere near the right person to write a treatise on it, as it it not my field of expertise, or even keen interest. There are many books written on the topic, and as alluded to previously, they take differing approaches to accepting the compromises involved. So you can't read just one and think you understand.

[Kinkstaah]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

The main argument for lighter ARBs is that ARBs reduce the independence of the suspension. They link the left wheel to the right wheel. The lighter the ARB is, the less this linkage. When you hit a significant one wheel bump on a car with lighter springs and heavier ARBs, more of that disturbance gets transferred across to the other wheel. Whereas, with a heavier spring and lighter ARB, the impacted wheel is the only one that reacts to the hit.

If you hit a significant two wheel bump, then lighter springs are the only things taking the bump as the ARB is not involved (both ends move up/down together). Then the spring rates alone determine how the car takes the hit. Softer springs (to a degree) will be more comfortable. Harder springs will accept the energy input better with less total compression (but obviously possibly more undesirable and probably uncomfortable body movement).

The other significant thing to remember is that spring rate is really about coping with the rate at which loads are input to the suspension. Driving around slowly? Then any bump you hit is going to feed load into the suspension at a low rate, and you can use a low rate spring and with a low rate spring the damper has to less work to control the spring's motion. This describes street usage because it is mostly illegal to go fast or drive aggressively enough to require handling fast load inputs. But if you're going at racetrack speeds (or rally, or anything where going fast over whatever the surface is) then the loads get applied faster and you need to control that input with more spring rate, and then the dampers have to do more and that's why it all starts getting expensive. Anyway, the point of all that is, it's complicated, depends on usage and surface quality, and it's why proper race cars have a lot of adjustment and will even completely swap out springs and dampers when going from one track to another. One track might be smooth, and so even if it is a fast track there won't be rapid load input. Another track might be as rough as guts, or it might have a couple of sets of tight esses on it that require the car to heave from side to side. The rates at which loads get fed in will be different on those two tracks and probably require completely different setup.

Three paragraphs and 400 words are nowhere near enough to convey how complicated this subject is and also I am nowhere near the right person to write a treatise on it, as it it not my field of expertise, or even keen interest. There are many books written on the topic, and as alluded to previously, they take differing approaches to accepting the compromises involved. So you can't read just one and think you understand.

Thank you, this was comprehensive and I consider myself an expert on the subject now.

Regards,
The Internet.

[Wazmond]

Suspension really is complicated.... All these considerations are making me over think it all. Again.

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

My observation is I have had good results racing on MCA golds (spring led) but personally find Gary's approach of lighter springs and heavier bars is more predictable over mixed or rough surfaces like in rally (or an Australian road)

I reckon I'll wait for SK's response on his coilovers, and go from there. Though if I go MCA, I'll have to decide on whether the extra $600 (voston comforts $1890, mca pro comfort is $2490) is worth it. Just something soft and comfy, yet firm enough when required at the track or a casual old pac drive for a pie...

Otherwise, anyone have experience with SuperPro bushings? Needing to replace the bushings on the suspension department... Will probably keep the oem uppercontrol arms etc, and just replace the bushings. 

[GTSBoy]

Superpro are fine. There are some applications (R32 FUCAs for example) where they are no damn good, but typically for any normal suspension bush, they are fine. Some people will complain of them making noise. Some people will complain of them collapsing. But many of those can probably be traced back to not properly lubing at install or other installation problems, or possibly other problems elsewhere in the suspension that put additional load into particular bush. And for the legit complaints? Meh. Deal with it. I had to replace the poly bushes in my R32 FUCAs every year.

The real issue is that I am sold on the idea of adjustability of at least upper arms. So I only have spots for poly bushes in lower arms these days, as everything else is either hardened rubber or spherical steel.

[Sydneykid]

On 18/04/2024 at 3:37 PM, Wazmond said:

Suspension really is complicated.... All these considerations are making me over think it all. Again.

I reckon I'll wait for SK's response on his coilovers, and go from there. Though if I go MCA, I'll have to decide on whether the extra $600 (voston comforts $1890, mca pro comfort is $2490) is worth it. Just something soft and comfy, yet firm enough when required at the track or a casual old pac drive for a pie...

Otherwise, anyone have experience with SuperPro bushings? Needing to replace the bushings on the suspension department... Will probably keep the oem uppercontrol arms etc, and just replace the bushings. 

I currently have someone who is interested in buying the rear set, plus he has asked me to quote him on an equivalent front set, new of course.   I'll post up what a new set would cost and you can make a decision then.

I noted a bit of discussion on spring rates versus swaybar rates, Duncan has explained my approach very well.  What I would add is that if you have high spring rates then it is a PIA to change them if you want to, say, do a track day.  Whereas with adj swaybars it's a much easier task. Plus if you find that there is an imbalance in the handling (oversteer vs understeer preference for you) it is relatively easy to change the balance with adj of the swaybars, again much more difficult with springs. 

On the race cars we don't change spring rates all that often, we do however change damper rates frequently, high speed vs low speed bump and rebound independently.  A tuning task not for the inexperienced, driver or engineer.  Driver adj swaybars are adj frequently, several times in 20 minute race is not unusual.

 

Cheers

Gary

[stasis]

Hi Sydney kid

 

do you still selling spring and blistein shocks for Nissan 260rs? Air any suspension upgrades? Please advice

 

 

yudy

[numleg]

@Sydneykid, I'm also keen on a price for a set to suit a 260RS

[stasis]

On 15/4/2024 at 7:11 AM, Sydneykid said:

Hi guys, I do have set of rear Stagea Gen1/2 Bilsteins revalved, only used as a test fit for a couple of days.  They are height adj coil overs, used strut tops with new sphericals and Whiteline stacked springs, a helper/tender plus a 265lb main spring. 

If you need fronts I can still source them, but delivery is from Germany so not overnight.

Cheers

Gary

Hi Sydney do you still supply the spring and shock i want to change my coil overs to the your set up please advice

[GTSBoy]

You'll likely have to @ him and even that might not work. He's not exactly a regular these days.

[niZmO_Man]

Wow Sydneykid is still around, haven't seen him (online) in years.

[Shortyesquire]

On 15/04/2024 at 10:11 AM, Sydneykid said:

Hi guys, I do have set of rear Stagea Gen1/2 Bilsteins revalved, only used as a test fit for a couple of days.  They are height adj coil overs, used strut tops with new sphericals and Whiteline stacked springs, a helper/tender plus a 265lb main spring. 

If you need fronts I can still source them, but delivery is from Germany so not overnight.

Cheers

Gary

Hi Gary,

I would be interested in the Bilsteins. I've recently purchased a 260rs and need to get the suspension sorted. Can you pm me to discuss?

[Watermouse]

I dm’d him about 6yrs ago and he still hasn’t opened/replied lol

[stasis]

 WELL IF ANYONE HAVE HIS PERSONAL CONTACT DETALS PLESE PM MEWell does any one have his contact details othe than in SAU? IF ANYONE DOES HAVE HIS CONT

[Duncan]

well, Gary doesn't own a suspension shop (any more) and I think he is choosing when to engage/how much time to put in to SAU or selling kits, which is totally his right.  He has shared a huge amount of experience on here over the years from both his direct knowledge of the suspension of these cars, and from being part of a serious effort to race R32s and all of that written knowledge is still available here, so I totally understand him not wanting to answer 50 pms a day for what is essentially a hobby.

Heasman's in Sydenham for those in Sydney, or your local Bilstein dealer elsewhere could also assist with Bilstein based kits, noting they would not include custom revalving but would still be generally suitable for these cars.

[Sydneykid]

On 31/05/2024 at 10:13 PM, Shortyesquire said:

Hi Gary,

I would be interested in the Bilsteins. I've recently purchased a 260rs and need to get the suspension sorted. Can you pm me to discuss?

Hi, I have someone interested, if it falls through I'll let you know.  I have a brand new set of fronts that  I sourced from Bilstein UK, now revalved and complete with springs to go with the very lightly used rears, if you are interested in a full set.

As Duncan has mentioned this is not my job, I sold my suspension business over 10 years ago, but I am here to help when I have the time.  To give you some idea of my schedule I was at SMSP for the State Championship for 4 days the weekend before last.  Then The Bend for 4 days last week and back at SMSP testing this week, a day visit to One Raceway, then the SMSP Day Night meeting the weekend after.  I was hoping to squeeze in a dyno day with Scott on my R32 this week, but that's not going to happen, that's the second time I have had to postpone.

Apologies if my responses are slow.

 

Cheers

Gary

[Shortyesquire]

2 hours ago, Sydneykid said:

Hi, I have someone interested, if it falls through I'll let you know.  I have a brand new set of fronts that  I sourced from Bilstein UK, now revalved and complete with springs to go with the very lightly used rears, if you are interested in a full set.

As Duncan has mentioned this is not my job, I sold my suspension business over 10 years ago, but I am here to help when I have the time.  To give you some idea of my schedule I was at SMSP for the State Championship for 4 days the weekend before last.  Then The Bend for 4 days last week and back at SMSP testing this week, a day visit to One Raceway, then the SMSP Day Night meeting the weekend after.  I was hoping to squeeze in a dyno day with Scott on my R32 this week, but that's not going to happen, that's the second time I have had to postpone.

Apologies if my responses are slow.

 

Cheers

Gary

No worries. 

I have a set of Zeals to get me through for the moment but would definitely be interested in a full set of Bilsteins.

Are you doing race support these days? I drove past the Bend when I picked up the 260 rs but never driven the course. How does it compare to SMSP? I'll be at SMSP tomorrow afternoon and on the 26th of June in the morning. I'll be in a very loud (straight through exhaust and straight cut gears) silver R35 GTR.

Cheers,

Andrew  

[stasis]

Hi Gary how are you? Thanks for the post though. Yea i will be interested in a full set of springs and blistein shock  coil overs or not im pretty flexible. PM please. Thnks

 

cheers 

 

yudy