The Wasteland - ACT Style

[Trozzle]

Anthony, how old are you?

EDIT: never mind. Don't ever f**king speak to me like that again. If Eric posted what you did, I'd sook but at least he has grounds for argument. You, mate, are 21. You have less experience than I do on this subject, so what on earth made you think you can take such a condescending tone as though you have a f**king clue?

I'm out of this one. Clearly we can't even have a discussion without personal insults coming out, regardless of how far fetched and ludicrous my opinions might be.

[Anfanee]

Anthony, how old are you?

EDIT: never mind. Don't ever f**king speak to me like that again. If Eric posted what you did, I'd sook but at least he has grounds for argument. You, mate, are 21. You have less experience than I do on this subject, so what on earth made you think you can take such a condescending tone as though you have a f**king clue?

I'm out of this one. Clearly we can't even have a discussion without personal insults coming out, regardless of how far fetched and ludicrous my opinions might be.

i never claimed to have extensive knowledge. I just said you are making yourself look like an idiot.

[Deziner]

Just to be clear Troy, I am not having a go at you, merely a lively debate. ; )

So your comment "With the right knowledge, anyone has the power to be exposed to anything and not let it affect them." is really far off the mark. Soldiers are given the correct knowledge and tools that are supposed to enable them to cope with the horrors they see. And still we see soldier returning with PTSD.

Everyone has a breaking point, its a spectrum, but everyone has a point at which they will be affected negatively by what they see....Even you.

I myself have a pretty high tolerance in this regard, but even I, if I am being honest with myself have been affected to some degree with what I have seen. I have worked in security and emergency management as well as having done a Masters in Counter Terrorism so I have probably seen sicker stuff than most on this forum.

"Desensitatisation to something is VERY different to influencing the individual to enact that which they've witnessed. I won't at all deny playing/watching violent stuff will desensitise an individual; I will however firmly stand against the common notion being pushed that it will make them more likely to re-enact similar things to that which they've witnessed because they're under the impression it's "normal/acceptable"."

Trust me if you give a young teenager access to this material it will and does affect them. Teenagers do not understand that their actions have consequences, this couple with desentitisation and the fact that a teenagers brain chemistry is all over the shop and often results in them acting out at the best of times...It is trouble.

As I said before, I don't think this means they are going to turn into a mass murderer but in many cases will lead to issues.

As you mentioned Troy, Balance is key. There-in lies your answer. Kids should not be playing super violent games or watching that stuff on TV, that in itself is not balanced nor does that give a kid or teenager a "balanced" view of the world.

I understand...Gone are the halcyon days of Pacman and Space invaders. LOL. Even I am partial to a good shooter game, however there is a point where they go way to far. Further twisted games like Silent Hill and those types of things are way beyond what a teenager should be playing.

[Trozzle]

i never claimed to have extensive knowledge. I just said you are making yourself look like an idiot.

If you don't know how to say I'm making myself look like an idiot without coming across like a f**king wanker yourself, don't even try. You f**ked it up this time mate, perhaps read your own post a few hundred times to make sure you understand what it sounds like when you're being condescending.

The fact you admit you don't have extensive knowledge confuses me even further - what in the hell were you thinking speaking like that if you aren't even deluded into thinking you've got something to stand on?

[Shell]

Troy, people can be exposed to things in time and grow up quite well adjusted.... you make it sound like we need to sit all 10 year olds down and force them to watch graphic violence or they'll end up as sheltered, unsocialised 30 year olds.

In fact, being older than you guys I didn't have the internet at 15, and to an extent, the level of violence we see on TV these days, and I turned out fine. Although that might be debatable haha

It's fine for you to have an opinion but I have to agree with the other guys that you are coming across pretty arrogant.... and I know you... I know it's just your style, but you need to realise you're not always right.

[zebra]

Needs more Woosah up in this bitch

Because Shell is too nice

STFU kents

[Anfanee]

If you don't know how to say I'm making myself look like an idiot without coming across like a f**king wanker yourself, don't even try. You f**ked it up this time mate, perhaps read your own post a few hundred times to make sure you understand what it sounds like when you're being condescending.

The fact you admit you don't have extensive knowledge confuses me even further - what in the hell were you thinking speaking like that if you aren't even deluded into thinking you've got something to stand on?

i have no idea why you are being so agro. You had violent stuff as a kid and turned out fine ahuh i can see that. Good way to get your point across mate.

[Trozzle]

Just to be clear Troy, I am not having a go at you, merely a lively debate. ; )

So your comment "With the right knowledge, anyone has the power to be exposed to anything and not let it affect them." is really far off the mark. Soldiers are given the correct knowledge and tools that are supposed to enable them to cope with the horrors they see. And still we see soldier returning with PTSD.

Everyone has a breaking point, its a spectrum, but everyone has a point at which they will be affected negatively by what they see....Even you.

I myself have a pretty high tolerance in this regard, but even I, if I am being honest with myself have been affected to some degree with what I have seen. I have worked in security and emergency management as well as having done a Masters in Counter Terrorism so I have probably seen sicker stuff than most on this forum.

"Desensitatisation to something is VERY different to influencing the individual to enact that which they've witnessed. I won't at all deny playing/watching violent stuff will desensitise an individual; I will however firmly stand against the common notion being pushed that it will make them more likely to re-enact similar things to that which they've witnessed because they're under the impression it's "normal/acceptable"."

Trust me if you give a young teenager access to this material it will and does affect them. Teenagers do not understand that their actions have consequences, this couple with desentitisation and the fact that a teenagers brain chemistry is all over the shop and often results in them acting out at the best of times...It is trouble.

As I said before, I don't think this means they are going to turn into a mass murderer but in many cases will lead to issues.

As you mentioned Troy, Balance is key. There-in lies your answer. Kids should not be playing super violent games or watching that stuff on TV, that in itself is not balanced nor does that give a kid or teenager a "balanced" view of the world.

I understand...Gone are the halcyon days of Pacman and Space invaders. LOL. Even I am partial to a good shooter game, however there is a point where they go way to far. Further twisted games like Silent Hill and those types of things are way beyond what a teenager should be playing.

Yeah Eric I understood you were just debating as well, hence why I was so taken aback when my response was treated with such a lack of respect, regardless of what people thought of what I said. I was trying to respond maturely to your post (showing YOUR opinion respect), unfortunately some people here would rather show their own immaturity than add anything useful.

Regarding soldiers and PTSD - I think that's quite different to what I'm getting at. I'm specifically talking about things that are either fictional, or second-hand. There would only be a few nasty things you could experience first-hand and come out of perfectly fine thanks to preparations, and combat in a war situation is definitely not one of them lol. I'd even go as far as to say that the ones that DO come out perfectly fine are the ones with underlying issues haha, but that's something I really have no grounds to comment on as I actually have zero experience

I'll admit that my my point and the basis to my opinion is simply from my own personal experience(s) and that of my mates/those close to me.

The first time I saw something truly f**ked up was a beheading video on someone's phone. I won't deny that at first it really shook me. However I understood the circumstances in which this took place were so far from normal, and that the people involved were f**king lunatics lol....I'm running out of words here, but all I can really say is that what I have personally witnessed (all second hand on a screen) hasn't screwed my mind in any noticeable way - certainly far from what some would like you to believe it WILL.

With regards to the balance part, I don't think kids should be exposed to anything and everything, nor do I feel there's any NEED whatsoever to expose them (I think people may have interpreted my post to say that kids SHOULD be desensitised for their own good? If that's what anyone thought I meant - hell f**king no lol no way). I was raised from the get go being taught right from wrong, respect, manners, all that jazz. At least in my circumstances, I knew from a very early age what was normal and acceptable, and was taught the consequences of actions. Let's just say I was raised with good life risk-assessment skills haha

(really don't want to sound arrogant or up myself here, nor do I mean any disrespect - please bear with me lol) Your final point with the video games thing is where I feel my generation's opinion holds more value over your generation's opinion. We have first hand experience being raised with these admittedly over the top games and films, so if anyone could tell you if it's making them more likely to commit an act of violence, surely it's us...right? (yes, that was a general statement haha, of course there's nutbags out there that will take everything literally). This is where I still feel that if you've been raised appropriately and taught right/wrong etc etc you can enjoy the game/film knowing that what's going on has absolutely NO PLACE in real life and should never be enacted...do you get where I'm coming from here? I realise there's a lot of variables and plenty of counters/rebuttals to this point of mine, but can we at least see what I'm trying to get at? lol

[Trozzle]

i have no idea why you are being so agro. You had violent stuff as a kid and turned out fine ahuh i can see that. Good way to get your point across mate.

Because you called me out in the way you did. It f**ks me off big time when someone more ignorant than I tries to tell me I'm wrong without offering a rebuttal. Especially in the way you did. If you spoke in that tone to someone on the street and they flogged you a good one in the jaw, I wouldn't at all feel sorry for you as you had it coming (not to say they had the right to hit you, of course). If you can't see what you did wrong in your post, just shut up and leave it here.

Shell you just confirmed EXACTLY what I suspected people may have taken from my post - read my above reply to Eric

EDIT: I swear I remember clarifying that in no way am I suggesting we intentionally desensitise children....where did that go :S

[Shell]

That was a much better post, Princess

Now I dont mean drive 11/10ths everywhere. I mean if you absolutely need the car for work or can't afford to fix it thN dont enter.

Ive seen it too many times where someone has a blow or a stack then sooks about about not having a way to get to work.

This is exactly why I have been unable to enter as many track days as I want over the years

It's ok for people who have a daily, but I can't afford to fix the car, let alone find a way to get to work!

[Trozzle]

Oh also Shell you backed up another one of my points - you older folk didn't have exposure to the same things we do, so what makes you think your opinion is more correct than ours given we're the ones with the first hand experience of being raised with violent vidya gamz

Another edit: how the hell was that post any better than my last one I got called out for???? I'd say it was written in the same tone lol...maybe I'm just really shit at making my point clear, and only now it's starting to make a bit more sense to people what I'm actually trying to say lol

[zebra]

Oh also Shell you backed up another one of my points - you older folk didn't have exposure to the same things we do, so what makes you think your opinion is more correct than ours given we're the ones with the first hand experience of being raised with violent vidya gamz

Because an outside view is much clearer.

[Anfanee]

anywayyyyyyyyyyyyyy who likes pie?

[Shell]

Yep, you're just really shit at making your point clear

And I don't think my opinion is more correct, just think there's a right and a wrong way to express it

[Deziner]

I guess the biggest thing Troy is you cannot say just because you turned out OK others will. You can not juxtapose your experience onto others. That is not realistic.

The fact that the beheading video affected you when you initially saw it is case in point. Things can affect people in different ways, in your case it was not nagative, but affected you none-the-less. That feeling when you first saw it, if you reflect on it now probably comes back to you quite strongly. That is how the human mind works. How we learn, adapt and in some cases break.

Regarding the games generation comment...Not really mate. My generation pioneered them, including shooter games. I also grew up on a diet of Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th. Scared the hell out of me at the time.

But to use this as an example - You can not discount some of the biggest mass shootings and links they had to playing excessive amounts of extremely violent video games. But as I said, this does not mean everyone that plays them is going to carry out a mass murder. For many it will manifest itself much less extreme...But still negatively.

Again I bring back the point I made about soldiers using extremely violent games to desensitise themselves, or I should say they are made to play them for that purpose. Proven psychology that these games do impact the human psyche. This means for a soldier they are able to kill another person much more readily. same will apply in the real world out of the combat zone.

[D.I.Y. Mik]

Hmm.. thats true, everyones different.

Ive played heaps of killing games, my first computer had 16 kb memory, and ive played computer games ever since, even won BF1942 tounaments.

When i see real blood i get dizzy, and beheading vids i nearly pass out.

When i was a kid i found all the horror movies boring, totally unscary. Except Jaws.

I think games help soldiers with the reaction time and to not shoot over their heads, so it helps them kill quickly, but they still may have problems afterwards.

Except SAS (born killers)

Edited August 13, 2013 by D.I.Y. Mik

[RosieR34]

I understood Princess perfectly.The points he as using and trying to say. I didn't see Troy coming off as arrogant but as a chance to voice his opinion and open for debate. However, as I'm sure some of you have notice, I suck myself at getting my point across

On the topic of PTSD our soldiers are not "trained" to cope. They are trained (I use the word trained loosely) to tolerate with it and cry about it later. Get on with the job etc. My dad and and most my family currently serving and doing many many of tours overseas can vouch for that. My Dad is the one who speaks with people who have PTSD and also has it himself (The cray stuff he has seen...). As for SASCats (SASR) as Mik mentioned, they have a turn on and off switch you will hear most of them say. They can turn their emotions on and off in a click of a heart beat so coping with PTSD may seem a lot easier (I'm sure they would disagree). However SASCats have a lot more funding behind them when they are current and ex serving members of the Special Forces.

Edited August 13, 2013 by RosieR34

[Deziner]

"On the topic of PTSD our soldiers are not "trained" to cope.". Not correct. All the training and conditioning is supposed to help them cope, deal with or any other words you want to use. The desensitization is part of that.

And this basically feeds into my argument. Soldiers play these games (as an example), they go off and are able to carry out their duties easier, then realise there are consequences, to them psychologically. Seemed easy when it was a game on a screen or running drills with simunition.

And SAS soldiers are certainly not immune to PTSD. Being able to switch you emotions off as you put it does not mean they are not affected by PTSD.

[RosieR34]

"On the topic of PTSD our soldiers are not "trained" to cope.". Not correct. All the training and conditioning is supposed to help them cope, deal with or any other words you want to use. The desensitization is part of that.

And this basically feeds into my argument. Soldiers play these games (as an example), they go off and are able to carry out their duties easier, then realise there are consequences, to them psychologically. Seemed easy when it was a game on a screen or running drills with simunition.

And SAS soldiers are certainly not immune to PTSD. Being able to switch you emotions off as you put it does not mean they are not affected by PTSD.

All the training is "said" to help them etc etc, but it does jack all. There isn't really any support (besides that of speaking to someone etc there are also Veteran Affairs who help). By no means do I mean that SASR are immune to PTSD, I just emphasis (Or tried to) that they have a better coping mechanism.

There are many forms of it, one which was going around with the US Helicopter pilot killing the enemy and "cheering" or "getting excited" after a kill was simply a coping mechanism. I thought you meant that they are trained to cope with it and thus not being affected by PTSD etc PTSD doesn't set it until "Reality" does, when you're on home soil, out of the "warzone" and you're back to your living life - this is where the support fails and most the time stops.

[Deziner]

Cool.

No my original point was that they are given tools to cope but do not.