Power FC vs. the rest

[SLY33]

Merli,

I spoke to some big name tuners before purchasing my MicroTech, Tilbrooks for the FC and RPM for the Mtech, and thru all the questions i asked them about both computers, tuning resolution was never mentioned.

I dont know why it didnt come up, but it would seem that if the microtech was at a 'significant' disadvantage over the FC in this area, i would have been told this by Tilbrooks'??

You said it doesnt matter whether WE can tell the difference in load points, but surely it does! Say the tuner prefers an FC, but the end result is the same, and WE the drivers cant tell the difference, then why spend extra money on load points you wont even notice? I like the point whatsisname made about the stereo with the functions you never use and probably dont need- very good analogy!

I dont think your particular analogy is that accurate - 8V pre outs vs 1V pre outs. In this case i think its more a case of 45Wx4 vs 50Wx4!! that works out 1 or 2 Watts RMS. You wont be able to tell the difference.

[SLY33]

GiJO,

Cheers for posting that table!

Getting back to resolution, The table actually shows:

Microtech 500rpm Vs "480"rpm for the FC

20rpm difference, not the 100rpm difference first indicated by someone. Cmon guys, that is insignificant on a tuff streeter!!

I dont know why they use a MAP sensor!? Motec are really the kings, and they use MAP dont they?!

The MAP gives you a bit more freedom with your blow off valve, as there is no sensitive AFM to confuse... But hey, if micro tech offered an AFM option it would be great for those concerned about fuel consumption.

Someone with a LT12 please do a decent test!! as i wont be driving my car for a while! (its in Adelaide, im in Sydney at the moment)

SLY

[rev210]

Originally posted by Merli

Biggest reason:

LT12 = 16x16 Map = 256 Tuning/Load Points

PFC = 20x20 Map = 400 Tuning/Load Points.

That's nearly twice the tuning resolution.

'nuff said.

You don't need to program all 256 load points to get a good street tune let alone 400.

7 year old Haltech's had 512 load points, temp compensation and 250rpm incrementals if you wanted.

There are a number of excellent computer options around to increase the fueling requirements of the modified streeter. Piggy backs to full replacement it's all a case of potato / tomato.

At the end of the day the computer you end up getting will only be as good as the tune its given. On that topic the easier the interface is to understand the less time is taken to interpret and fewer mistakes are made (murphys law still applies).

[Guest INASNT]

Originally posted by SLY33

that dosnt sound good! but I wouldnt take that as the norm.  We had a 33 in adelaide that made 230kw at the wheels with standard turbo and just an FC and std mods, wheras most will be around the high 190's, low 200's.

-apparently that was the most power ever obtained from any 33 with the std turbo? (in adelaide at least!)

WTF???

u sayin stock non highflowed turbo, stock afm, no fuel pressure reg etc?

[GiJOr33]

sly33... the power fc is 400rpm... i just checked the magazine. It must have stuffed up on the scan so it looks like 480rpm. I'll do some checking around as well. I'm in Melbourne, anyone know some good places to get PowerFC or Microtech tuned? i'd like to go have a chat to them.

Thanks

Andrew

[rev210]

The new wolf3D looks good 2048 load points & 16bit and not too $$$.

[Clint32]

I think the reason you will get a slight decrease in economy with the Microtech is because it dosent run closed loop, this will mean you use more fuel when you are just crusing. Other than that there is nothing bad about them that I have heard.

[Merli]

I spoke to some big name tuners before purchasing my MicroTech, Tilbrooks for the FC and RPM for the Mtech, and thru all the questions i asked them about both computers, tuning resolution was never mentioned.

 I dont know why it didnt come up, but it would seem that if the microtech was at a 'significant' disadvantage over the FC in this area, i would have been told this by Tilbrooks'??

Perhaps you didn't ask the right questions?

Perhaps Tillbrooks makes a larger profit selling the Microtech? (Very VERY possible)

Perhaps Tillbrooks prefers to work with Microtech?

There could be a lot of reasons.

You said it doesnt matter whether WE can tell the difference in load points, but surely it does!  Say the tuner prefers an FC, but the end result is the same, and WE the drivers cant tell the difference, then why spend extra money on load points you wont even notice?  

You seem to have completely missed my point. The main reason for having a greater number of load points is to give higher tuning resolution. Who does the tuning? Your tuner.

You may very well not notice the smoother power delivery from more accurate fuel and ignition maps... In which case, I suggest you get the cheapest ECU you can find.

For those of you who want to give your tuner the best possible tool to work with when tuning your expensive engine, I suggest buying the best ECU available. It's not rocket science to realise that giving your tuner an A4 peice of paper to work with is better than giving him an A5 peice of paper to work with.

I like the point whatsisname made about the stereo with the functions you never use and probably dont need- very good analogy!

Actually it's a very bad analogy, because a higher resolution tuning map is in use 100% of the time... It's not a function you can just "never use", like a whizz-bang stereo function.

I dont think your particular analogy is that accurate - 8V pre outs vs 1V pre outs.  In this case i think its more a case of 45Wx4 vs 50Wx4!!  that works out 1 or 2 Watts RMS.  You wont be able to tell the difference.

Whatever... If you don't think you'll be able to tell the difference between a $1500 Nakamichi deck, and a $300 Sansui deck, then I suggest you buy the Sansui deck.

If you *CAN* tell the difference, then the decision is already made for you.

In any case... For those arguing the effectiveness of a 20x20 map vs. 16x16 map, you have already got your mind made up that the LT12 is your solution. Fine. But know that your argument on the 256 load points being just as good as 400 load points is actually quite laughable. Seriously.

How much better is it? I'm not sure.

Is it worth the extra money? I'm not sure.

But is it better? Absolutely, without a doubt. Simple maths.

[Warpspeed]

It seems to me that on a road car the two most important features are having closed loop, and also a proper airflow meter.

MAP sensors assume that the airflow through the engine is a certain amount at a certain manifold vacuum or pressure. If something changes anywhere in the engine or exhaust system, the whole thing needs to be retuned.

An airflow meter actually measures the airflow, and adds the correct amount of fuel. If something changes the airflow, then the fuel mixture remains correct.

If like me you are constantly messing about with your car an airflow meter is far more forgiving. Closed loop control at light throttle is also very good for the same reason.

In my opinion having a MAP sensor and no closed loop on an everyday road car is silly, and is going to cost heaps in poor fuel economy and performance.

[sfifteen]

Originally posted by Merli

In any case... For those arguing the effectiveness of a 20x20 map vs. 16x16 map, you have already got your mind made up that the LT12 is your solution. Fine. But know that your argument on the 256 load points being just as good as 400 load points is actually quite laughable. Seriously.

How much better is it? I'm not sure.

Is it worth the extra money? I'm not sure.

But is it better? Absolutely, without a doubt. Simple maths.

Does this mean that the Wolf V4 with 2048 load points is far superior than almost any other ecu out there??

[SLY33]

Originally posted by Merli

Whatever... If you don't think you'll be able to tell the difference between a $1500 Nakamichi deck, and a $300 Sansui deck, then I suggest you buy the Sansui deck.  

If you *CAN* tell the difference, then the decision is already made for you.

Dude, thats taking it a bit far- thats like comparing a mandarin to an orange. Its more like a small orange (Mtech) to a slightly larger and sweeter orange that costs a bit more (FC).

If you want an orange, you will enjoy them both

(btw, i just ate an orange, hence my analogy. And it was a bit smaller than I usually buy )

Originally posted by Merli

In any case... For those arguing the effectiveness of a 20x20 map vs. 16x16 map, you have already got your mind made up that the LT12 is your solution. Fine. But know that your argument on the 256 load points being just as good as 400 load points is actually quite laughable. Seriously.

How much better is it? I'm not sure.

Is it worth the extra money? I'm not sure.

But is it better? Absolutely, without a doubt. Simple maths.  

Well im not arguing about map specifics or maths, you obviously know more than your avg consumer, including myself, about that department. Im just relaying my first hand experiences to help others make a decision on which road they'd take. I could've really used this thread when i was ECU shopping!

Originally posted by Merli

Perhaps Tillbrooks makes a larger profit selling the Microtech? (Very VERY possible)  

Perhaps Tillbrooks prefers to work with Microtech?

Just for the record, Tilbrooks push the FC. I dont think they even sell MicroTech. Even so they can obviously play with it well enough to pump out extra kw's such as in Matts 33!

-Merli, just out of curiosity, what ECU are you using? -and lets not turn this into the afforementioned ECU war!

Cheers, SLY

[SLY33]

Originally posted by rev210

You don't need to program all 256 load points to get a good street tune let alone 400.

7 year old Haltech's had 512 load points, temp compensation and 250rpm incrementals if you wanted.

There are a number of excellent computer options around to increase the fueling requirements of the modified streeter. Piggy backs to full replacement it's all a case of potato / tomato.  

At the end of the day the computer you end up getting will only be as good as the tune its given. On that topic the easier the interface is to understand the less time is taken to interpret and fewer mistakes are made (murphys law still applies).

Interesting about the older ECU's. And yeah, the tuner thing too.

Originally posted by INASNT

WTF???  

u sayin stock non highflowed turbo, stock afm, no fuel pressure reg etc?

Yep. Stock turbo. Im not sure about the stock AFM or fuel pressure reg, but im pretty sure about 230rwkw. He had cooler, exhaust, intake, cam gears, basically all the available bolt on's and a good tune. Yes, the car was a freak.

Well wasnt there a 33 at the recent tilbrooks dyno day that did 204rwkw on a stock ecu and basic mods?

I wish i had the other details about the 230rwkw car, but i know his name was Leon, a big asian guy. Anyone from adelaide know him?? This power was made some time ago too. Think it might have been sold, i will see what else i can dig up.

SLY

[Clint32]

Has anyone used MoTeC on their skyline, I may be able to do a deal to get one for not much and I was woundering if and what model others have used.

[Merli]

Originally posted by SLY33

Dude, thats taking it a bit far- thats like comparing a mandarin to an orange. Its more like a small orange (Mtech) to a slightly larger and sweeter orange that costs a bit more (FC).  

Just for the record, Tilbrooks push the FC.  I dont think they even sell MicroTech.  Even so they can obviously play with it well enough to pump out extra kw's such as in Matts 33!

-Merli, just out of curiosity, what ECU are you using?  -and lets not turn this into the afforementioned ECU war!

Yeah, I did take the analogy too far, but that's the beauty of analogies

The thing is, when Matt says he make 250rwkw, that's just peak power... Although that's an excellent figure, it doesn't tell you what his power delivery is like, what his half throttle performance is like, what his throttle response is like, etc...

After saying that, I saw the dyno chart Meggala posted up for him, and in all honesty, it looks like an excellently tuned car, with excellent power delivery... No rough bumps...

I'm running an HKS GT3040, and making 275.8rwkw @ 1.1 bar(can't get a higher reading because my OS Giken twin plate clutch is slipping now More money down the drain to get new clutch plates)... The HKS GT3040 doesn't come into it's efficiency range until 1.6-1.9 bar, so the turbo isn't even breathing hard yet... I just have to put forged internals in there, and turn up the boost... Oh... and find a spare $5000 first

To make that, I'm using a PowerFC, but to be honest I need to find something else. The Z32 AFM I'm using is not going to cope with the turbo flowing 2.0 bar worth of air(which is what I'm going to run it at after the internals get done), so I need an ECU that can use a MAP sensor, and get rid of my AFM...

Maybe I'll start a thread and see what suggestions people can come up with

[mazman]

Has anyone used MoTeC on their skyline, I may be able to do a deal to get one for not much and I was woundering if and what model others have used.

you reckon you can get a group buy happening?

i wouldnt mind one.

[SLY33]

Originally posted by Merli

I'm running an HKS GT3040, and making 275.8rwkw @ 1.1 bar(can't get a higher reading because my OS Giken twin plate clutch is slipping now More money down the drain to get new clutch plates)... The HKS GT3040 doesn't come into it's efficiency range until 1.6-1.9 bar, so the turbo isn't even breathing hard yet... I just have to put forged internals in there, and turn up the boost... Oh... and find a spare $5000 first

To make that, I'm using a PowerFC, but to be honest I need to find something else. The Z32 AFM I'm using is not going to cope with the turbo flowing 2.0 bar worth of air(which is what I'm going to run it at after the internals get done), so I need an ECU that can use a MAP sensor, and get rid of my AFM...

Dude, that sounds like a crazy ride! you had it down the quarter?

Sounds like awesome stuff... What compression ratio are you gonna use when you pump up the boost?

What boost can be safely run with a std RB25 (forgetting the ceramic turb wheel on std turbos) I know that a simple head gasket change can drop comp down to 8.5:1, allowing more boost, but i dont like the idea of losing off boost drivability, a factor that made the 33 a more attractive buy to me than the 32.

Will 8.5:1 comp ratio on RB25 make it drive like an RB20 off boost? I'll post this one as a new thread.

SLY

[whatsisname]

Originally posted by Merli

 The thing is, when Matt says he make 250rwkw, that's just peak power... Although that's an excellent figure, it doesn't tell you what his power delivery is like, what his half throttle performance is like, what his throttle response is like, etc...  

After saying that, I saw the dyno chart Meggala posted up for him, and in all honesty, it looks like an excellently tuned car, with excellent power delivery... No rough bumps...

Merli,

You're more than welcome to hop on a plane, fly down (stay @ my house if you like, as long as you don't mind a 7wk old baby crying 1/2 the night ) & drive my car to see how poorly the lowly 256 load points feel in terms of all round driveability. I'm dead serious too! :uh-huh:

As I said in my "257rwkw" thread, driveability is excellent. I wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t! It "was" a little off factory quality but after some further tuning by Mr HPI himself I'm a very happy camper. Tim from RPM did most of the work (on Freebaggin's tune) he then loaded the maps into mine & went from there. Martin finished it off nicely (FOC too!)

As for my analogy, let me try again.... Lets take the most expensive high end home audio (I'm talking' mega quality gear!) It probably has THD, wow & flutter, signal to noise ratio (or whatever the hell they call all that jazz) that's so good it's beyond the ability of the human ear to pick the difference from low spec equipment, sure the top notch gear is great but only your dog will appreciate it

I realise 400 is better than 256 (bigger being better & all that) the question is…..how much better!? Other than a possible slight difference in economy (something I personally don't really care about) would you be able to feel a difference on the road? Or see a difference in dyno numbers?

A very skilfully & carefully tuned ECU "should" have A/FR's that make for best power & economy irrespective of closed loop. Providing there is temp correction I see no reason this won't be the case. That's not to say that CL doesn't make a difference, just it's not as much as people think. Incidentally Microtech will upgrade to include CL soon.

Andrew,

That Zoom article (penned by Martin some time ago) also shows the Microtech range doesn’t have laptop control. It certainly does now. It also 100% does have temperature correction (water/air). These functions allow the ECU to make fine adjustments in relation to air & water temp changes. Thus maintaining a perfect A/FR & idle stability. The air temp function also allows the ECU to control the timing (advancing or retarding) dependent on inlet temp, once again to ensure perfect A/FR’s & maximum safe power.

ECU choice is open to soooo many variables arguing one or the other is pointless.

Budget

Ease of installation

Ease of tuning

Knowledge of local tuners (unless you’re prepared to travel or have someone come to you)

Your set up

Required or desirable features (MAP or AFM, logging, auxiliary outputs i.e. thermo fan control / Nitrous control etc.)

Even contacts in the business!

Ability to revert to standard with ease (such as the PFC)

The list can go on!

By the way Merli, nice set up & rwkw figure!

[Clint32]

Sorry Mazman the only reason I will be able to get one really cheap is that our compnay does work for someone who uses them, I can do some work and get it, maybe an M800.

[Merli]

Originally posted by whatsisname

You're more than welcome to hop on a plane, fly down (stay @ my house if you like, as long as you don't mind a 7wk old baby crying 1/2 the night ) & drive my car to see how poorly the lowly 256 load points feel in terms of all round driveability. I'm dead serious too! :uh-huh:  

As I said in my  "257rwkw" thread, driveability is excellent. I wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t! It "was" a little off factory quality but after some further tuning by Mr HPI himself I'm a very happy camper. Tim from RPM did most of the work (on Freebaggin's tune) he then loaded the maps into mine & went from there. Martin finished it off nicely (FOC too!)          

As for my analogy, let me try again.... Lets take the most expensive high end home audio (I'm talking' mega quality gear!) It probably has THD, wow & flutter, signal to noise ratio (or whatever the hell they call all that jazz) that's so good it's beyond the ability of the human ear to pick the difference from low spec equipment, sure the top notch gear is great but only your dog will appreciate it  

I realise 400 is better than 256 (bigger being better & all that) the question is…..how much better!?  Other than a possible slight difference in economy (something I personally don't really care about) would you be able to feel a difference on the road?  Or see a difference in dyno numbers?

A very skilfully & carefully tuned ECU "should" have A/FR's that make for best power & economy irrespective of closed loop. Providing there is temp correction I see no reason this won't be the case. That's not to say that CL doesn't make a difference, just it's not as much as people think. Incidentally Microtech will upgrade to include CL soon.

WOOHOO!!!! FIELD TRIP!!!

I'd love to come down to Melbourne and let you take me for a fang in your car... I want to visit a few of the clubs down there too, my friends tell me they go off! There was talk of a "meet halfway"-type cruise between NSW/QLD or NSW/VIC a while ago, but no-one has gotten off their asses and organised it... Imagine the collective horsepower between a VIC/NSW meet

Anyway, back to the matter at hand... I agree with you... I don't know how much better 400 load points would be vs. 256 points... I actually had a spare PowerFC lying around up until about 3 weeks ago... This thread should have popped up earlier... I would have been more than happy to send it down to you to play with and do back to back runs with your LT12... I guess that's the only way to see how much of a difference it makes... Same car, same dyno, same day, different ECUs.

ROFL!!! I actually burst out laughing at the dog part I think I woke up my dog doing so... :lol: :lol:

[GiJOr33]

Whatsisname,

where in melbourne are you? cos i'm in melbourne as well. Wouldn't mind coming to check out your car and have a chat about computers and who you get to tune your car.

Cheers,

Andrew