help - car makes strange metalic noise near the starter motor

[someonestolecc]

Gday,

I had an electrical fire in my car a few days ago and now that it's re-wired i start her up and it sounds aweful!

It's strange because I have a theory it's coming from the engine starter because when it's running already I turn it to start and it DOESN'T do anything (ie. doesn't grind when you try to start a car thats already started). So I'm thinking it's somehow getting shorted and is staying on, the theory against this however is that it doesn't grind loudly like a car being turned on thats already on.

Anyway accompanied with this metalic noise (which slightly seems to follow the revs, but not entirely), is a smell I've never smelt before. It's not quite burnt oil it's not plastic it's not metal it's something else but it definately smells like grinding or friction of some sort. This comes from where the engine starter is on the passenger side of the engine (sr20det).

To top it off, I get NO boost - atleast I can't hear the turbo spool nor does the boost gauge go past positive (it's responds in the negative pressure but won't go over zero).

*sigh* Could anyone have any theories? Is it possible there was a wire fried out that controlled the turbo, or does the turbo spool according to the engine (ie. not electrically controlled by the computer for example)?

What could the noise be?

And lastly, since this is probably beyond the usual "what could this be check this check that" does anyone here work for a speed shop and do side jobs or anything like that?

I'm really hoping it's salvagable cos otherwise I just bought a rather large write-off.

[someonestolecc]

Also could the fact I get no boost and some weird grinding noises be caused by a blown up (from the electrical fire) crank angle sensor? - cos i think that was one of the things closest to where the fire occured (wiring wise).

[kursed]

I wish i could help out someway man that really sux, I hope this all works out eventually

[SteveL]

It's strange because I have a theory it's coming from the engine starter because when it's running already I turn it to start and it DOESN'T do anything (ie. doesn't grind when you try to start a car thats already started).

This suggests to me that the starter pinion is still engaged with the ring-gear teeth. That would certainly make some unusual noises. Also could get quite hot as (of course) it's not meant to be like that, but could also explain the smell.

Could be the starter solenoid is partly jammed on, or is shorted somehow. Usually when that happens, the +ve cable from the battery starts to get quite 'warm' after awhile as it is continually carrying current with the solenoid shorted.

Anyway, I'd suggest disconnecting the battery and removing the starter motor to check it out - either by yourself or an auto elec.

[red900ss]

Tom, I moved this to Maintenance. One of these smart cookies should be able to help you.

Sounds like a trip to an auto electrician is what you need.

Good luck

[someonestolecc]

SteveL thanks that sounds like a good theory. It sounds good because after the electrical fire I had the car started in the second ignition switch.

(I think it goes lock, acc, on, start ? if thats the order it started from acc, then if you went to on it'd just cut out for a sec (loss of current) then keep going, when you moved to start no difference the car would stay on except my water temp gauge would zoom down (reverse polarity to a positive signal)).

Also after I got my car home when it was still shorting (before cleaning up the wires) everytime I put the fuse back in (the starter motor fuse/accessories fuse) the starter motor would turn on like crazy.

But is it still possible it's the starter motor because this grinding DOES NOT sound as loud (or the same type) of grind as when you try to turn a car on that's already on??

I was thinking of starting the car and then getting underneath it and unplugging the wire from the ignition to the solenoid to see if the noise would go away if it does then found our culprit - I'll try this and let you know how I go. I'm really hoping if I do that it DOES stop the noise and the fact my turbo isn't spooling comes back!!

Thanks Red no prob - didn't really think that it'd go in this section. Noted for further troubles

[SteveL]

Also after I got my car home when it was still shorting (before cleaning up the wires) everytime I put the fuse back in (the starter motor fuse/accessories fuse) the starter motor would turn on like crazy.

Again this says something is shorted in the starter or in the starter wiring. As well as the heavy cable from the battery to the starter, there should be a single small wire connected to the starter solenoid. That little wire provides power to activate the starter motor when you turn the key to 'start'. With the motor running, try pulling that small wire off the starter. If the noise goes away, the problem is with the wiring to the starter, but if it's still noisey with the wire disconnected the problem is with the starter motor itself. I'd guess your problem is with the wiring since you had a fire, perhaps somethings note re-wired correctly

But is it still possible it's the starter motor because this grinding DOES NOT sound as loud (or the same type) of grind as when you try to turn a car on that's already on??

If the solenoid is jammed on for whatever reason, the starter pinion will remain 'permanently' engaged with the ring-gear teeth. The noise would be a bit like a loose gear in a gearbox, changing pitch with rpm.

When you turn the starter on with the engine running, the starter solenoid trys to throw the starter pinion (or gear) into engagement with an already moving set of teeth on the ring gear. The chances of them engaging correctly are very small and more often than not you get that high pitched 'scream' as the gears clash - quite a different sound.

[someonestolecc]

If I can't get it diagnosed without pulling the solenoid wire off I will tape the sound on the digicam and post it up.

I've never heard this kinda sound before. Normally when you try to start a car thats already started it clunks like crazy - this is weirder than that.

Oh well hopefully that's all thats fried.

Would this effect the turbo not spooling for whatever reason? (I'm hoping this is just a wiring/electrical issue).

Thanks mate.

[jaik]

mmm burning flywheel.

Also if your Cam Angle Sensor dies you'll know about it... the car wont start at all.

JK

[someonestolecc]

Yes JK the sound was horrible from the flywheel it seemed (I guess you're saying thats what it was).

Yes SteveL you were totally spot on - thanks for your advice!

I left work early today and eagerly did this test - turned on the engine, pulled out the solenoid wire from the ignition and sure enough the noise just went away !! Woohooo. I then let the car warm up and I was back on boost!! weeeeeeeee!!!

I took my car for a nice little drive my neighbourhood and drove it back onto a ramp. Now I'm happy as pie knowing nothing is majorly dead in my car. I will still have to track down what's causing the starter to stay on however I have a feeling it's the ignition wiring or perhaps the ignition itself.

I might have to have my sparky mate check it out and manually short all the ignition wires to see if it's the ignition barrel or the wires leading up to it. I'm thinking perhaps the short somehow ****ed the barrel?

Cos ever since I've turned it on it starts the car from ACC (as mentioned above).

Weeee!!! I'm so happy right now knowing it ain't my turbo.

No doubt something else will blow up/go on fire/fail/leak/grind/shudder/fall off and countless other things that have happened with the car *knock wood* so far but for now I am happy!!

[BHDave]

I think you have a short in or around the fuse box for the cranking signal to be fired off the acc switch. As the starter isn't disengauging it also suggests that the ign switch is also shorted to the starter switch. It'd be pretty easy to check youself as the most likely point is somewhere around where the fire occured.

[Al]

After the fire who rewired the car?

If you paid an auto elec, take it back as it sounds like something is VERY wrong with the wiring.

[someonestolecc]

Al - After the fire a mate (who is an auto elec) fixed the short. He did not wire up the rest of the car (he had to go). After he found where it was shorting he made sure the wiring was re-wired as per pre-fire wiring (which he still said was dodgey his words were "man if i saw this car to buy i'd rip this shit out in front of his face and say fix it this is rough as i wouldnt give a ****") but i guess it does the job for now (full rewiring of car goes on the black list).

So yeah the shorting I think you're on the money Dave I don't think is near where the fire was - that was actually quite far away from anything else (near the air filter/front of the car). He checked the fuse box visually said it seemed ok. Since the car starts on ACC i'm thinking as the wires heated up which caused the fire, they must have heated up somewhere back in the loom to the ignition and melted into each other also. I'll have to trace it back I'm just wondering if there is an easier way to do this than rip every loom apart (starting with the one involved in the short/fire) and tracing it back.

I've ripped out my whole panels around my ignition barrel in preparation - gonna be a long weekend.

[Sumo]

That smell your talking about sounds like what we call the "dollar smell" It usually means it costs lots of $$$ to fix.

If you do keep running the car with the starter engaged, most likely the starter will throw her legs outta bed (her windings)

I see the other blokes were doing a push button start switch "mod"... You could put a start switch in over the ignition (so that it can only be started when the key is at ignition) and bypass that wire that may be melted, and wire in a relay to take the soleniod load.

Will send you an email if you like with a picture of how to do it.

Cheers

Sumo

[b00st11n]

hii guys, I just had the same probolem, on the morning when I tried to start it up, it will give out that grinding noise (like when we try to start the engine after it is running) and the car wont start, I live in sydney does anyone know where I could get the started motor re-condiitioned (I never have this problem before)

cheers

[The Dan]

Take it to an auto-electrician. They can usually rebuild them for you or get you a replacement.