What do you think the answer is .....

[GRUNTN]

its not about education or driving skill's it's about personal responsabillity ,speeding on public roads or drink driving or any other criminal offence is the factor.

[strutto]

This idea probably has it's pros and cons, as do all ideas...

But, what about free, easily accessible, open all hours, driver enjoyment facilities... Like an area where you can go and take your friends / car for a strap without having to worry about power poles, bumps in the roads, police, pedestrians, etc... Like an open all hours skidpan / circuit / drag strip / donut pad... With runoff areas and all the other necessary safety precautions...

If I wanted to show off my car to someone, and I had the choice of doing it at a facility like the above, or on the street in a 50 zone with all it's inherent dangers... I know what I'd choose...

No need for power restrictions, no need for curfews, no need for multi level licensing, no need to do it on the streets...

Or we could just give all new license holders 350rwkw RWD monsters and let the wheat sort itself from the chaff

[GRUNTN]

exactly my point why performance??

[TasR.X]

License re-testing at 5 year intervals for all drivers.

yep your right, I don't see why it should just be young people that have to go through strict testing and education if there is still a hell of a lot of idiotic older drivers that have bad habits that will never change unless they are taught properly and tested every now and then.

I know a few oldies that aren't aware of laws such as keep left unless overtaking in an 80km + zone, and the "zip" merge rule to name a couple. When I went through the road rule book a few years ago before going for my L's I was with my Nan, and she ended up learning a few new laws she had never heard of.

. ......He has never driven a high performance car, he has just as much chance as losing it as the 18 year old P plater if they both got into a high performance car. The loophole is that my father IS allowed to drive it and the p plater is not. Real effective law isnt it??.

Your forgetting that young people (I'm not just going to say 'P' platers [i'm 18 and not on P's]) in general are more tempted to show off, 'test' out their cars and to be "fullly sic moite". there's also the peer pressure factor.

(I'm not saying you are like this, but alot are.)

Also, how about just not getting into a situation where you lose traction? Alot of the time it's preventable, but not always in emergency situations so they should be teaching emergency braking and car control skills to EVERYBODY.

.....

Also, the police need to start getting their priorites right, what's more likely to kill or injure, l.e.d. windscreen washer lights or dodgy brakes with no pad materials(or shoes) left ?? -rhetorical question-

I've never seen a cop have a look at a car's brakes, they'd prefer to defect someone for wheels that are too large for the cars instead of looking at the real (possibly) danger behind the wheels.

They also shouldn't be kicking car enthusiasts out of car parks when all they are doing is standing around talking, because as soon as the police tell them to piss off alot of people head out into the hills and go crazy, It's obvious which is more dangerous.

Oh and they need to be more consistent.

[Roy]

i agree with driver training courses, i have done a few of them, and i had so much fun, i learnt so much more new stuff that can save me when im stuck in a situation.

Im not having a stab, its just that your post said it first:)

I have done a few of these and i hope what i picked up may help in an emergency. More likely ill crap myself and adopt the fetal position and brace for impact:(

What it did emphasize, was something i already kneqw...cars are big, heavy bits of steel that tear thru things before stopping, so all you can really do is drive sensibly and never put yourself into the position where yu will need to call on yout defensive training...or as much as practicable.

Driving is 90% attitude, 10% ability. So many of my friends think cars are transport, never in a hurry, dont get ttheir rocks of speeding...and guess what, they will live to see a ripe old age...even if he did scrape that pillar trying to park:(

[RedRocket]

Its all in the drivers mind, not the car.

Sure a car needs to be roadworthy, but restrictions for age or power or type of car etc?

It all starts going round in circles and before you know it you've got nowhere.

Some are mentioning the whole speeding thing as if the government propaganda were true. Dont get me wrong i'm not saying 200 in a 50 is acceptable in the least, but my point is if you want to drive safely on the roads you need to CHOOSE to do the right thing. You need everyone other driver out there to choose to do the right thing also. We need to be mentally involved in what we're doing whilst driving, not switching the brain off while we read the paper at the lights or make notes etc. We need to want to obey the rules because we agree with them and acknowledge them as a consensus.

Young drivers need to be shown to respect the art of driving, oldies need to realize that they have to be on the ball or else catch a bus, work commuters need to concentrate more and female asians ... well ........... J/K sorry

Its too easy just to make rules. Our attitude must be right. Everyone young, old, ethnic etc need to be made aware of the realitiy of driving. It is the pulse of a society, how we treat each other, our stress levels and a demonstration of our ability to work together. ants would do a better job!

The government should target peoples reasoning and not their wallets.

Fu(k the fancy trees down the middle of the roads and spend up on some genuine community involvement/ education/ facilities etc..

[predator]

kill idiots..

oh, hang on sec they already do...

[oh to dream]

im am a 'p' plater and consider myself to be a skyline enthusiast. As the name implies i am a long way from owning one and i will have to work long and hard if im ever going to own one. because of this i feel that i will appreciate and respect my skyline alot more when i get it.

As a 'p' plater i can confirm that we like to think that we know everything and its not until it happens to us that we actally learn our lesson. unfortunately many 'p' platers have found this out with their life. Much of my desire to get wheelspin in certain situations is due to me wanting to learn more about my car and what it is capable of, i learnt the hard way that wet public roads are not the place to practice skills and if i want to test myself or my station wagon ill have to go to a track to do it (a station wagon at a track, not happening).

Ultimately i feel that owning a high powered car should be the same as owning a 4WD. if u want to own one you should justify the reason for owning it. in the case of a sports car it may be spending time at a track to justify you owning it. afterall theres no point in modifying you skyline to do 50 or 110 on a freeway. You can't tell me all the mothers in Mosman really take there oversized heaps of sh#t offroad. and so they should not be driving them on the road in the city.

Regards dreamer

[Roy]

...if i want to test myself or my station wagon ill have to go to a track to do it (a station wagon at a track, not happening).

lol...why not? Have you been to any open days at tracks...i think you would be surprised at the cars there...yes wagons and auto KB Lasers:)

Sprint days may be different though:(

[The_Paladin]

Driver facilitys would be fantasitc.............but ultimatly wouldnt work..............i reckon a good % of the hoons doing 200 in a 50 zone arn't doing that to show off their cars, driver thrill etc.........it's to be rebellious by breaking the law. they're doing it cause they're not allowed too, the thrill from the risk factor of getting caught.

the highest speed limits on aus roads are 110kph (sept highways out west, but the numbers of cars there are extremely low compaired to the signed highways) why not speed limit cars to 120kph? that dosent ban racing for anyone.........you can still buy and transport a car for racing.................it just keeps high speed racing off the roads. i'm not sure i'd want that to actually happen..........but there's not reason for it not to really. why would anyone need to drive a street legal car over 110kph? (000 services are the exception though)

i reckon they should crack down on senior drivers too.........interestingly enough if the papers printed "Senior Drivers Meanacing Streets" there'd be an outcry................

males under 25 are still more likely to be involved in a crash than any other demograph. that has to be remembered.............

[Guest mark32]

yep your right, I don't see why it should just be young people that have to go through strict testing and education if there is still a hell of a lot of idiotic older drivers that have bad habits that will never change unless they are taught properly and tested every now and then.

I know a few oldies that aren't aware of laws such as keep left unless overtaking in an 80km + zone, and the "zip" merge rule to name a couple. When I went through the road rule book a few years ago before going for my L's I was with my Nan, and she ended up learning a few new laws she had never heard of.

Perhaps i should have made myself clearer i wasn't talking about idiots tailgating in the right lane i was talking about idiots tailgating in the left lane or single lane just because their too stupid to realise you need a certain amount of time to stop now mattter how good your reactions or abs brakes are and a lot more room when it is wet but still they're 10mm of the other guys bumper, and keeping to the left is no revelation that rule has been out for years but it's not going to help in this circumstance is it, but so what if some wanker is in right lane when they should be in the left does that give you the right to double the equation and tailgate? NO it just means now there are two wankers in close proximity and doubling the danger, this is the sort of shit i'm talking about.

Most good driving is about using your head and you don't need any specials skills for that except for a brain. One example 160 or whatever in a 50 zone even a 10 year old could tell you that is stupid but some people just leave their brain behind and if you can weed these people out then that would be a really good start irrespective of what age/race/sex they are.

I have no problem with everyone being retested every 5 years but as i said previously if it is going to be the basic test they give you for getting a licence then forget it it's a waste of time. When you do get your licence knowing how to reverse park is not going to help you one bit when you really are in trouble. It is too easy to both get and keep your licence, if this is made tougher we may all end up being better drivers

[TasR.X]

yep your right' date=' I don't see why it should just be young people that have to go through strict testing and education if there is still a hell of a lot of idiotic older drivers that have bad habits that will never change unless they are taught properly and tested every now and then.

I know a few oldies that aren't aware of laws such as keep left unless overtaking in an 80km + zone, and the "zip" merge rule to name a couple. When I went through the road rule book a few years ago before going for my L's I was with my Nan, and she ended up learning a few new laws she had never heard of.

Perhaps i should have made myself clearer i wasn't talking about idiots tailgating in the right lane i was talking about idiots tailgating in the left lane or single lane just because their too stupid to realise you need a certain amount of time to stop now mattter how good your reactions or abs brakes are and a lot more room when it is wet but still they're 10mm of the other guys bumper, and keeping to the left is no revelation that rule has been out for years but it's not going to help in this circumstance is it, but so what if some wanker is in right lane when they should be in the left does that give you the right to double the equation and tailgate? NO it just means now there are two wankers in close proximity and doubling the danger, this is the sort of shit i'm talking about. [/quote']

I was merely refering to the fact that alot of older people aren't aware of many road rules, the keep left law is just an example of a law my Nan was unaware of, so settle down.

[gts4diehard]

hi, I think there should be power/weight restrictions on p platers myself.

Not because small cars cant excede the speed limit and not get you into trouble but because more powerful cars get you into trouble FASTER.

On numerous trips to the gold coast I've been been cruising along and been passed by all those excels zipping along at 130-140kms - wet or dry, accidents just waiting to happen.

To survive an emergency situtation when things are happening Fast requires extra skill or years of experience. Sooner or later over your driving 'career' you will face most what can be thrown at you.

Some Things I've had happen.

Cattle running out through a hill cutaway across the road while I'm doing 100kms an hour on 100 k road, had to swerve on righthand side on road with drivers side wheels running in gravel in ditch.

Hitting oil on a corner and sliding out at 30kms hr, correcting car without going onto other side of road, with oncoming traffic, oil/diesel from trucks stopping on corner and turnig into Tip/Top - near Autobahn, brisi boys will know this sequence of corners.

Going onto motorway and large truck lost dual wheel off semi trailer, which then rolled across roundabout, those buggers are heavy and will kill you quick fast.

Oncoming driver falling asleep and driving head on and aiming for ditch to my left then him suddenly waking and swerving back to his side of road - on a 100 km/hr road, good one for checking your decision powers , 1 cross to his side of road, or 2- hit brakes and knock off as much speed as possible and watch carefully and make a late swerve ...

In all the above situtations I've managed to get through them without crashing my car or anyone elses by knowing the vehicle that I drive and having enough skills to do the right thing at the right time.

I have been driving for many years, and I had no advanced training when I was learning to drive but what I did have was country roads that werent busy which afforded the luxury of little oncoming traffic should you make a mistake or have to take avoidance action.

So what I'm trying to say is what most people know, experience will help get you out of situations or allow you to see them developing but this takes years, or undertake some driver training which will give your experience a kick start and give you the chance to survive. Its when things happen unexpectedly that you need those skills to kick in instinctively, some times you dont have time to think, just time to react.

So YES to advanced driver training- skid pans, night training also ..., this will help more young people be prepared for what can happen and should reduce the number of people doing stupid things. Everyone things they can be michael 'shoemaker' when they start but it takes time to realise that that you dont have that level of skill, or to be shown on a controlled environment such as a skidpan that you still have a lot to learn.

and YES to power restrictions, this will give young inexperienced drivers the extra few seconds that can make the difference between a life and death decision. Of course there are young people out there with natural ability and the skills and maturity to drive fast cars but for them they would have to satisfy there speed urges on the track - where we all should be doing it.

P.S. Not just picking on younger drivers but there are alot of bad 'older' drivers also who also need driver training. Advanced driver training would also be beneficial to these people if they step into more powerful cars.

so if you're YOUNG.

1- advanced driver training - No matter what car you drive. to give survival skills a head start.

2- power restrictions until experience gained - say 3 years, to give the person a chance to gain some maturity and realise they aren't a F1 contender.

and OLDER DRIVERS.

1- advanced training - if you're stepping out of the excel and into a v8/turbo car, just so they are used to a car where things can happen much more quickly.

and EVERYONE

- A reminder of the rules every 5 years - I'm sure most people dont rememer how to merge, or how to go onto a roundabout for very long.

My 2 cs worth.

Stephen

[Keepleft]

I'd suggest people you can forget the emphasis on 'advanced driver training', research shows this creates 'overconfidence' in some candidates, the potential for trouble. Our recent publicised crash driver has such training.

December 15 2004 - will see in Canberra the inital meeting for 'strategy' leading to an eventual Commonwealth National Driver Training Scheme within 3 years. I suggest you will see the emphasis on DEFENSIVE driving. This will likely see additional on-road driver training. Those attending will be 'industry professionals', government agencies, Peter Brock and other such professionals drivers.

This is advocated by the Hon Jim Lloyd, the Commonwealth Roads Minister. Jim is very serious about achieving this national goal, he has the support of many including the Deputy PM, also a driver enthausiast of note.

(We should note that in dealing with the recent publicised NSW Central Coast crash, that Jim knows one of the families quite well, I'd suggest this be kept in mind).

I suspect we will see a tightening up of ADR's and vehicular requirement.

I'll remind the forum, that Australia is a nation of 'sovereign' States, therefore, what applies in say Victoria, may not apply in NSW or QLD and so on. This should be kept in mind.

NSW residents will soon be able to purchase a new copy of this States driver manual, it replaced the Road Users Handbook, it *should* cost less. It contains much greater clarity and even offers advice on the placement of a 'single' hazard warning triangle, in line with what we teach in Europe to our learners.

I suggest you all keep a close eye on developments over the next three years. It is our best ever chance yet of having 'proper' driver training.

I'm going to suggest in closing, you ALL purchase a single hazard warning triangle, for use at crash scenes and breakdowns. Hella Part Number: 2901 (Approx $47) - is the Euro/International type which is what this Commonwealth government would rather you purchase, as part of Australia's ongoing UNECE harmonisation. BMW Spare Parts have these in a plastic box for around $32.

NB - This MONDAY the 29th, should show where NSW is heading in relation to P Plates.

[nmcmahon83]

Combing that newspaper article "14 reasons blah blah blah..." with that new ad campaign which states, in the past 12 months 200 PEOPLE (doesn't specify P-platers) we see that 14/200 killed were p-platers... that to me says 7%... what about the other ****ing 93%???

My 2c...

[The_Paladin]

good point keep left.....

mass advanced driver training for the young would definatly make some people way over confident. and more likely to drive in dangerous situations........

it's only effective with maturity attached to it......but anything to do with driving is like that

[adznight]

Noticed this morning on the news they were saying the NSW Government wants to raise driving age to 18 from 16, ban driving of high performance cars till 26 and offer driver training. Interesting...

[The_Paladin]

yep should be 18...............cars and people at school are a bad mix......

[adznight]

:werd: If we have to wait here then I don't see why the rest of Aus shouldn't.

[Lozza150]

An Email from a mate (Iain) who writes for a car magazine

Interesting reading regarding slowing young driver fatalities.

*

Right now, I'm sitting at my desk, blood boiling, with a copy of the Daily Telegraph sitting next to me. I can understand there's a heap of public anger at young "hoons" in their "souped up" cars, but it's the paper's f**king righteous, holier-than-thou attitude that's pissing me off no end.

*

They're simply*preaching to the uneducated middle-class just to sell papers. They don't give a f**k about young drivers and as soon as Michael Costa comes out and says he's fixed the trains, this P-plater crusade will be forgotten.

*

They're claiming there's a major increase in P-plate accidents, saying lately*they've gone bananas.*However, thanks to the longer 3yr P-plate term, there's TRIPLE the number that were on the road pre-2000! They're also making out there's a large number in high-powered cars, but only 6% of ALL fatalities in AUSTRALIA involve modified cars.

*

I've gotta say that part of me says loud and clear, "Darwinism works, why change a good thing?!" But then I remember that one day, a loved one (or me) might be killed or injured by one of these idiots that are cutting their WRXs in half.

*

I wholeheartedly support power-limits on under 21 year-olds (from my experience, the most dangerous years) and limiting passengers. I am prepared to pay up to $500

(per 3 yr Silver license term) for a license to drive a highly modified, high-performance car on NSW/Australian roads. I'll sit the tests, if I don't pass, I'll cop it sweet and drive another car.

*

I admit, for a P-plater, a VN Commodore Exec is dangerous. They don't handle well and can spin/flip VERY easily. John Anderson (Dpty PM) never spoke truer words when he said (not a direct quote) "high performance cars aren't that dangerous with the right people. Let's face it: they've got better brakes and suspension than most family/economy cars and, in*general,*more safety features."

*

To drive a Skyline/turbo/supercharged/high-performance Type-whatever properly you need some experience. 3 years should give you enough real world experience to handle such a car and be in a situation to pay for proper maintenance on it.