Toe in toe out???

[dangerous_daveo]

Can someone whos in the know please explain this to me. More so for a car that is going to be used on the street, not driven overly hard, but enough to make a difference. And also taking in consideration of best compromise of tyre wear.

What is best, toe in or toe out???

Also what camber lets say could compliment this if the outsides of my tyres seem to be wearing (already has 1* negitive camber, and is running a slight amount of toe out, cant remember why)

Thanks for the help.

[someonestolecc]

I'll probably be doing somewhere round this-

Front

toe out = tiny bit

camber = 4 degrees

caster = ??

Rear

toe in/out = 0

camber = 1 degree or .5 degree

Based on S-Kid's advice-

That's because there is no compromise setting.

* Road, circuit and drift all need lots of caster on the front, as much as you can get.  It really helps with the turn in.  So that's OK for all three

* Circuit and drift need lots of negative camber on the front, around 3 degrees is a good place to start.  Then use the pyrometer to optimise for each circuit.  But on the road you will be replacing the front tyres very quickly.

* For circuit and drift a little front toe out is sometimes necessary, to improve the mid corner control.  But on the road the tramlining will drive you crazy.

* For circuit around 1.5 degrees negative on the rear is a good place to start.  Then use the pyrometer to optimise for each circuit.  But on the road you will be replacing the rear tyres fairly quickly.  For drift you don't want too much rear grip, so around zero camber is a good place to start.

* For circuit use zero rear toe is where I would start, for drift a little toe out will help the turn in rear instabiity so you can get the tail out easily.  On the road a little toe in best for stability under braking, over bumps and in the wet.

 

If you are serious about doing it right, you should get a camber gauge and learn how to adjust the camber yourself.  You will be changing wheels I assume, so adjusting the camber is easy while you have them off.

I would also suggest a set of adjustable stabiliser bars, you can adjust them while the wheels are off as well.  Lots of rear anti roll for drift, not so much for circuit and lots less for road.  Then use the front bar adjustment to tune the handling balance.  Less anti roll for drift then road or circuit.  If you are doing any drags I would suggest a softer pair of rear spings will help the times a lot.  They will also be OK for the road but you will need a severely high rate in the rear for drift, with something in between for circuit.

Hope that helps:cheers:

From here

[blind_elk]

Toe: Stand with your feet parallel to each other - that's 0 toe. Now move your heels further apart - that's toe in. Now move your heels back so your feet are parallel, then move your heels closer together - that's toe out. If you consider your car's wheels doing a similar thing, you should start to understand. For a street car, toe in is more desirable, and a few mm is usually pretty good.

Camber is the relationship of the top of the wheel to the bottom of the wheel. When the top is closer to the centreline of the car than the bottom, that's negative camber. When the bottom is closer, that's positive camber. Negative is better, and for a street car, about -1 degrees is usually quite sufficient.

My experience has been that with negative camber, you should increase the toe in - it apparently lays the tread back down onto the road.

With negative camber and toe out, you should be scrubbing the be-geezus out of the inside tread

blocks.

(All the above is related to the front wheel alignment, for a street car.)

[Busky2k]

At -4 deg camber you are going to wear out your tyres quick smart.

Zero toe at the front with -1.5 to -2 camber would be best, with as much caster as possible. Also for the rear, 1mm toe in to aid rear end stability under power with -1 deg camber would be ideal. All these are IMO of course for a pure streeter.

[someonestolecc]

I might have to look into that Busky thanks for the heads up.

Thing is currently the camber plates on my car are set to max camber. I'm assuming this is around 5-6degrees. It feels really nice around tight corner, not so great at speeds or medium corners but the little ones it just slinks into.

RE: the tyre wear I don't think it's that bad? I guess it's not an everyday everyday driver but it gets driven quite a bit and yet my tyres aren't that bad?...

I went through the front tyres in my barina from 0km to 6000km on metal.

What's "bad"?

[dangerous_daveo]

Ask the guy who sold you the tyres how many kms you should get of out them, then take 10-20 000kms off that. And thats bad

BTW thanks for the help.

Now the next question... Which one is caster, what does it do??? And which bit adjusts it??? From memory I think I have adj castor rods, but it could be something else.

[Sydneykid]

Caster is "camber" when you turn the wheels, the outside wheel goes negative camber and the inside wheel goes positive camber. So you want as much as you can get. Generally speaking caster is what makes the car turn in, camber is what keeps it turning.

To add caster you pull the bottom of the wheel forward or the top of the wheel backwards. Hence caster rods are connected to the lower control arm (bottom of thew wheel). Shorten them for more caster.

I wouldn't have 4 degrees negative camber on a road car, 1 degree is plenty. Add that to say 8 degrees of caster and you have a good handling start.

[strutto]

Hence caster rods are connected to the lower control arm (bottom of thew wheel). Shorten them for more caster.

Shorten them for more caster? I don't claim to be as knowledgeable as you SK but are you sure about that?

[someonestolecc]

I wouldn't have 4 degrees negative camber on a road car, 1 degree is plenty.  Add that to say 8 degrees of caster and you have a good handling start.

Fair enough. I'll have to talk to the garage then.

Right now the camber plates are stuck all the way in. Looks like a lot of camber but the car handles great for little corners - as I've said before feels like it slinks into them. Mid cornering and higher speeds (anything above 60km) is a bit twitchy but I spose that's the drift thing. I'll try for 1-2 degrees and see how we go!

Thanks for the tip.

[dangerous_daveo]

Caster is "camber" when you turn the wheels, the outside wheel goes negative camber and the inside wheel goes positive camber.  So you want as much as you can get.  Generally speaking caster is what makes the car turn in, camber is what keeps it turning.

To add caster you pull the bottom of the wheel forward or the top of the wheel backwards. Hence caster rods are connected to the lower control arm (bottom of thew wheel).  Shorten them for more caster.

I wouldn't have 4 degrees negative camber on a road car, 1 degree is plenty.  Add that to say 8 degrees of caster and you have a good handling start.

But what would tyre wear be like on that sorta set up??? And I do belive I have adj caster rods after a 2nd look. Im most concerned about tyre wear tho, as for one they arent cheap tyres, and well it is a normal road car, and Im not made of money.

[Sydneykid]

But what would tyre wear be like on that sorta set up???  And I do belive I have adj caster rods after a 2nd look.  Im most concerned about tyre wear tho, as for one they arent cheap tyres, and well it is a normal road car, and Im not made of money.

Well David, that is not an easy question to answer, I have no idea how you drive. If you drive like a woooooos then 1 degree of negative camber is too much. If you drive agressively some of the time, then 1 degree is about right. If you drive like a lunatic all of the time, then 1 degree isn't enough.

A lot of caster does not cause anywhere near as much tyre wear as a lot of camber. Or a lot of toe, either in or out.

Hope that helps:cheers:

[dangerous_daveo]

Yep spot on. Thanks muchly!

[RiverSide]

Hey Dave, YES you do have adj castor rods If you are wearing the outside edge of your tyres it may be wise to increase you camber to about 1.5 degree's (you obviously turn in hard) Adjust the castor as far as you can. zero toe or even VERY slight toe IN would be benefinicial also.

[dangerous_daveo]

Hey Dave, YES you do have adj castor rods   If you are wearing the outside edge of your tyres it may be wise to increase you camber to about 1.5 degree's (you obviously turn in hard)  Adjust the castor as far as you can. zero toe or even VERY slight toe IN would be benefinicial also.

Woohoo! Good memory Nico! Thanks.

[gtrjazz]

Just my thoughts The Camber and Caster angles will only Change on lock if you have a KPI angle away from Zero.

[Greg]

Shorten them for more caster?  I don't claim to be as knowledgeable as you SK but are you sure about that?

Yes. You shorten the rods to pull the wheel closer to the front of the guard. I did this myself - i set it to 9.5 degrees then I got a proper wheel alignment and set it at 8.

SK or others - is there such thing as too much castor? the whiteline website says not, but surely there must be some trade off, even if it is only tyre wear?

thanks

[Greg]

Just my thoughts The Camber and Caster angles will only Change on lock if you have a KPI angle away from Zero.

can someone please explain the KPI angle? i believe it stands for King Pin Inclination but that is all i know!

[mokompri]

Shorten them for more caster?  I don't claim to be as knowledgeable as you SK but are you sure about that?

yeap hes correct, the castor rod goes from the lower control arm to its mount further forward, shortening it will move the wheel forward for more castor

[mokompri]

the tradeoff of more castor is afaik, a less repsonsive strut... but it favours more castor in terms of tradeoff's, ie you lose a little but gain alot

[strutto]

Yeah my bad... I was thinking the castor rods went from the control arm backwards...

Not sure why... :confused: I remember taking em off to fit the bushes... I must have had a few too many that night...

Apologies and thanks for the clear up...