Jaycar Boost and Fuel Control

[Oosh]

Hi Guys

Sydney kid could you post your settings or antone else thats set up an RB25det (just as a starting point) as I have just finished my EBC and fitted it I think I was looking at the % the wrong way around .

100% is less boost and 1% is max yes? I was lowering the figures to stop the boost cut coming on all the time which would have been making it worse.

The % relates to what % of time the solenoid is energised*.

So, on a Normally-Closed type (i.e. a R33 stocko solenoid) it will is the % of time the solenoid is OPEN, allowing air to pass thru it and reach the actuator.

More air at the actuator = less boost.

Therefore, 0% = Max boost, 100% = Min Boost.

*However, this can be swapped about with 0% meaning fully energised and 100% no energy by changing one of the links, this is to accomodate the less-desirable Normally-Open type solenoids so that it still maps 0%=Max Boost, so be sure yours matches the setup doc.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Guys

Sydney kid could you post your settings or antone else thats set up an RB25det (just as a starting point) as I have just finished my EBC and fitted it I think I was looking at the % the wrong way around .

100% is less boost and 1% is max yes? I was lowering the figures to stop the boost cut coming on all the time which would have been making it worse.

Since each turbo is different, plus the mods for each car are not going to be the same (zero mods on mine) I wouldn't suggest copying my settings, but the trend may be usefull. The biggest difference is going to be the restrictor (vent) diameter, I used the standard Stagea 1.25mm;

1 - 0==The wastegate is closed to ensure the fastest boost build

2 - 0

3 - 0

4 - 0

5 - 0

6 - 0

7 - 0

8 - 0

9 - 0

10 - 0

11 - 0

12 - 0

13 - 0

14 - 1= Slowly opening the solenoid

15 - 2= I found it I went too fast it would surge between settings

16 - 4=This is because the boost builds very quickly

17 - 6=Especially with the standard turbo

18 - 8

19 - 10

20 - 20

21 - 30= It realy builds boost very fast here

22 - 50=So I had to step up the rate of climb

23 - 50

24 - 70

25 - 90= This is the max opening needed to hold the boost at 0.6 bar

26 - 90

27 - 90

28 - 90

29 - 90

30 - 90

31 - 90

32 - 90

33 - 90

34 - 90

35 - 90

36 - 90

37 - 90

38 - 90

39 - 90

40 - 90

41 - 90

42 - 90

43 - 90

44 - 90

45 - 90

46 - 90

47 - 90

48 - 85= I found the boost dropped off slightly

49 - 85= So I closed the wastegate slightly

50 - 85

51 - 85

52 - 85

53 - 85

54 - 85

55 - 80= Needed a little more to hold 0.6 bar

56 - 80

57 - 80

58 - 80

59 - 80

60 - 80

61 - 80

62 - 80

63 - 80

64 - 80

Hope that is of some help:cheers:

PS; If I wasn't about to change from the standard exhaust, I would make the hole in the restrictor (vent) slightly smaller. This would reduce the duty cycle on the solenoid. Around 60 would be a good target.

[Gary2]

Thanks for posting those readouts, I know they won't be suitable for all cars but now I have a rough idea on what I should be looking at. As you do your mods could you please update the figures as you go along so we can see the difference if there is any.

Also do you have the settings for the fuel controller you could post.

I have made the kits but not fitted them yet untill I have a couple of things done first.

I and others here thank you for bringing these ideas to us and it's really appreciated that you have been willing to share a lot of info on this and other subjects.

Thanks

[StageaRS4]

Hi, I've joined the band wagon and made the IEBC/HC kits and will get the DFA kit later on. Haven't had the chance to install them yet, need to get a multimeter or borrow one from work and then find enough time to do it.

I'm looking forward to seeing what difference these kits make as I have minimal mods so far (Pod filter/exhaust) and I don't want to get too carried away with expensive parts etc. Just want to make the most of factory drivability/reliability

Thanks to Sydney Kid and everyone else who has contributed info to this thread, it's definately one of the most interesting.

[Oosh]

1 - 0==The wastegate is closed to ensure the fastest boost build

...

13 - 0

14 - 1= Slowly opening the solenoid

15 - 2= I found it I went too fast it would surge between settings

16 - 4=This is because the boost builds very quickly

17 - 6=Especially with the standard turbo

18 - 8

19 - 10

...

64 - 80

So you'd definately see a difference between the above and say setting:

...

13 - 0

14 - 0

15 - 0

16 - 5

17 - 6

18 - 8

19 -10

? That's very interesting because i spent a fair amount of time last night testing (out of the car) the R33 solenoid i have. It SEEMS to only genuinely operated between 5% & 90% Duty, down to 3% and up to 92% some VERY faint movement could be heard but the piston definately wasn't throwing back forth fully, but maybe still enough to vent a little.

Since i was going by ear and didn't have a pressurised air source it's hard to tell. But, your results seem to suggest that it does do something down that low, which is excellent since they recommend a 15%-80% operating range. As always, good work Nissan for another excellent component!

[Sydneykid]

So you'd definately see a difference between the above and say setting:

...

13 - 0

14 - 0

15 - 0

16 - 5

17 - 6

18 - 8

19 -10

? That's very interesting because i spent a fair amount of time last night testing (out of the car) the R33 solenoid i have. It SEEMS to only genuinely operated between 5% & 90% Duty, down to 3% and up to 92% some VERY faint movement could be heard but the piston definately wasn't throwing back forth fully, but maybe still enough to vent a little.  

Since i was going by ear and didn't have a pressurised air source it's hard to tell. But, your results seem to suggest that it does do something down that low, which is excellent since they recommend a 15%-80% operating range. As always, good work Nissan for another excellent component!

It was my experience that when accelerating hard, it wasn't a problem, I could have gone up in 10% steps. But I got surging when driving along at lightish throttle settings, like going up a hill when you need a little more power. Not a lot (to accelerate), just a little to hold speed. The auto box and kickdown made it worse sometimes. I could see it on the Hand Controller, it would flicker between 2 or 3 load points. So I tried 2% steps and the surging almost stopped, so I went to 1% and it is gone.

Maybe it wouldn't be a problem with an exhaust upgrade, plus I am fussy, I like my cars to run "nice". I will sacrifice a couple of horsepower for "nice" every time.

[Oosh]

Fair enuf SK, another thing i was wondering about was which barb on the solenoid to hook up to pressurized side and which to actuator, see my dodgy attached pic.

If the solenoid acts anything like what i put in the third one, a piston moving up and down against a spring, then I should think the second option is the better of the two. As in the first the pressure works against the spring and could conceivably push it down and cause it leak?

[MANWHORE]

Hi Sydneykid

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that there were certain disadvantages of the system. PErsonally, i've bought it, built it without any problems, and installed it, and programmed it. It runs very well. Holds boost very well.

I was wondering if you'd be able to tell us the disadvantages as many people seem to be taking this mod up.

Question: With normal ebc that bleed off the pressure, when the pressure is bled off, the wastegate won't open as early. But with this ebc, the solenoid is in series, so say if the dolenoid is pulsing at 50%, then what is happening at the wastegate? Is it flapping continuously many times a second like the solenoid? Will it get damaged?

Thanks Sydneykid.

[someonestolecc]

Hi, the DFA would be quite a bit cheaper than a chip upgrade, plus you will already have a hand Controller (for the IEBC).  Ultimately the chip upgrade and tuning will give a superior result.  But if the budget is tight, you should give it some thought.

Thanks S-Kid, that answers my question.

I meant my ECU is ALREADY re-chipped and tuned for more boost, so I'll just whack on the iebc and put her on the dyno.

Cheers

[Sydneykid]

Fair enuf SK, another thing i was wondering about was which barb on the solenoid to hook up to pressurized side and which to actuator, see my dodgy attached pic.

If the solenoid acts anything like what i put in the third one, a piston moving up and down against a spring, then I should think the second option is the better of the two. As in the first the pressure works against the spring and could conceivably push it down and cause it leak?

As per this previously posted picture (on page 2 of this thread)

As you can see the boost feed (from the intercooler pipework) goes into the top fitting on the solenoid.

[MANWHOR3]

Hi Sydneykid

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that there were certain disadvantages of the system. PErsonally, i've bought it, built it without any problems, and installed it, and programmed it. It runs very well. Holds boost very well.

I was wondering if you'd be able to tell us the disadvantages as many people seem to be taking this mod up.

Question: With normal ebc that bleed off the pressure, when the pressure is bled off, the wastegate won't open as early. But with this ebc, the solenoid is in series, so say if the dolenoid is pulsing at 50%, then what is happening at the wastegate? Is it flapping continuously many times a second like the solenoid? Will it get damaged?

Thanks Sydneykid.

I too am interested in the disadvantages and if this is an issue

[someonestolecc]

Well, I thought I'd give this a go over the weekend and to test out my kit building skills I bought the rev light kit from jaycar.

After reading and re-reading that one, I still can't get it to work and have concluded that the people who write these instructions expect me to know how to follow the entire electronic diagram and understand which part affects which, so that when the instructions and the actual parts are different - you have to work out what is what yourself.

So, having wasted $30 and now I am looking at the IEBC + Handcontroller kits I realise I may have bitten off more than I can chew :boohoo:

Would anyone in Sydney entertain the idea of putting it together for me and helping me install it? I can pay in beer or other reasonable items.

[MANWHORE]

hey tom

i can understand what you mean by it being difficult. I think a lot of people are jumping into this by looking at the price and thinking it's good value. it is good value, BUT, they are not the easiest things to build.

I would say it took me a good 2 days to read (properly and thoroughly) and build both kits.

[someonestolecc]

Thanks for the message champ - I'm actually not a bad solderer or builder.

It's just that I'm used to dick smith kits that have instructions that are written for the novice (i'm no electronics wizz), and more-so the kits I'm used to the instructions actually match the peices given.

In the kit for the rev/shift lamp thing the instructions referred routinely to parts that weren't there so, really you're left to just make your own way with it.. I would prefer not to do this with $50/$80 kits... that's all.

If the parts are exact to the instructions etc - please let me know as if this is the case I will try to do them!

[MANWHORE]

Tom, feel free to take a look at my kit before buying. that might give you an idea of if you can build it or not.

The hand controller is pretty easy to build. It tells you the order of what to install first, then what etc. Furthermore, there are not too many components.

The ebc is trickier (for me, it wasn't hard, but that depends on your kit building skills). The problem is, that it does not give you an order of which components to install first. But the common method is wire links, sockets, resistors, capacitors....leave ics last...then accesories e.g. switches.

The problem is the number of components. There are quite a few. All you need is one mistake, and it won't work. E.g. putting components in the wrong spot. Polarised components (if you put the wrong way it won't work) such as diodes/ic/capacitors.... Also solder joints - all you need is one dry joint out of probably 100.

When I was building my kit, I could not get the screen to light up. I checked every component and every solder joint 3 times. I almost ripped all my hair out...kidding. It turned out that I was using the wrong cable. Jaycar sell 2 types.

DSE kits do seem to be much more structured, as in do this, do that. then that. But, overall, it's not hard. it's just fiddly. That's why it took me 2 days.

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, if you are a novice to kits, or ruty like I was, my suggestion would be to buy the book, Performance Electronics for Car. On pages 36 to 40 it has instructions on how to build kits, how to solder, what components are polarised etc etc. For ~$20 it's worth it for that alone. Plus it has colour pictures of the kits (the instructions that come with the kits are black and white) and lots of other usefull stuff. Read the book before you buy the kits, that should give you some idea of whether or not you want to spend the money on the kits themselves.

These kits have ALL of the parts necessary to get the kit working, even including the tuning resistor in the case of the DFA. You should not have to buy anything else as long as you have the basic stuff like wire cutters, screw drivers, soldering iron and multimeter.

Happy building:cheers:

PS; If you have bought a kit and are really stuck, PM me and I will help out where I can. Jack Daniels is the currency of choice.

[Sydneykid]

A couple of people have asked about dissadvantages. Well I wanted to wait until I had a fair bit of driving experience before I commented, so here goes;

Firstly the DFA, it has the same disadvantages as any AFM voltage bender. It increases or decreases the voltage signal from the AFM to the ECU. So it affects ALL of the ECU outputs. This means the tuning, ultimately, must be a compromise. For example, you can't lean the A/F ratios out without advancing the ignition timing. So if you want to best tune you can get, a replacement ECU is a technically superior upgrade. But it costs more and (in my case) Power FC's aren't available for autos.

There are a lot of load points, and you have to enter them one by one. This can be a little tedious if you aim for perfection as you tune. I found this method overcomes that. Get the main spots right while doing a run on the dyno, then fill/blend in the slopes. You can do this by scrolling through the load points very quickly using View mode on the controller, and blending while you go. This cuts the time under load on the dyno dramatically. For example I did a full tune in under 10 minutes.

The IEBC, is VERY different from other electronic boost controllers. It has some great advantages and controls boost very well. But (there is always a but) it has one dissadvantage for autos. It relies on injector duty cycle as its primary input, and that doesn't decrease on upchanges with autos. Obviously this isn't such a problem in a manual as you back of the throttle when changing gears, this decreases the injector duty cycle. In an auto you keep your foot planted, so you get a jump in the boost level as the gearbox changes up. At 10 psi this isn't really a problem, the gearbox handles is easily and the changes are not jerky. But I will be watching it closely when I up the power stakes with the GCG ball bearig hi flow, split dump. FMIC etc.

This is not like the aftermarket EBC's, that have a MAP sensor and you simply stick in a boost aim, and the EBC tries to keep boost at that level. So you don't get a boost jump on full throttle changes. But they don't allow the fast boost build that this system does.

Like the DFA, there are a lot of load points, and you have to enter them one by one. This can be a little tedious if you aim for perfection in your boost curve. I found this method overcomes that. Get the main spots right while doing a run on the dyno, then fill/blend in the slopes. Same as the DFA, you scroll through the load points very quickly using View mode on the controller, and blending while you go. This cuts the time under load on the dyno dramatically. I have spent a bit of time on the road trimming the IEBC, to get it just about perfect in all conditions. My passengers all say how precise the boost control is, and how it holds it all the way to the rev limit. So a bit of time is well spent.

The BIG disadvantage is you have to build them, but you wouldn't buy anything even close, built up, for 5 times as much. So in my humble opinion these kits are a must buy for someone who can solder, read and interpret instructions and who is doing basic upgrades to their car. I can not think of another upgrade that costs ~$200 and gives a 30% power increase and a 12% improvement in fuel economy at the same time. Plus I have the satisfaction of knowing that I did it all myself.

Full credit to JE and the guys at SC, they done good:cheers:

PS, a couple of guys have asked my about wear on the wastegate/actuator. I really don't see this as an issue, after all the wastegate is designed to open and close rapidly. Plus, with the IEBC, the wastegate sees no boost pressure at all for most of the time when you are driving around. With the standard system (and EBC's and bleed valves) the wastegate sees some boost pressure ALL of the time. So one could argue that using the the IEBC would actually result in LESS wastegate/actuator wear.

[resonance]

SydneyKid, you tuned the IEBC and DFA on the dyno, I just have a quick question. I have quite a good knowlege of how all this works and am planning on building the DFA kit first for my 180. My question is - do you think it's hard or easy to tune/adjust the load points on the road? Its just that I don't have access to a dyno unfortunately, or a wide-band O2 sensor I'm thinking of building an 'intelligent air/fuel ratio kit' that Silicon Chip published years ago, however still being a narrow-band O2 sensor, it won't be that accurate. But my car is very rich and so leaning by any extent can only be good

Also to those who are having problems with the building of these kits, I've seen up on Autospeed website when looking at these kits (they sell them too), they also have pre-built and tested versions they sell. Might be a bit more expensive, but I thought maybe it'll help to know for others planning on getting their hands on these kits.

[someonestolecc]

Thanks type-m and S-Kid.

I've got the book so I will build it from that today when I wake up

Let's hope the rev light kit was just a one off, but I might take it back tommorow to see if the suspect part I think was wrongly packaged is infact correct or not. If it's not correct I'm gonna be mighty annoyed. And if it is - then I have NFI why it doesnt work heh heh - OT but I don't spose anyone would care to have a quick squizz at it if I post them a pic of the thing and the diagram?

[B-Man]

Hi SK - Since the IEBC used injector duty cycle in it algorithm to control 'stuff' - do you think that this would work with a diesel turbo ?