Jaycar Boost and Fuel Control

[tang0]

ahh, yes, but thats all the way over in the sticks ...

maybe will have to take a trip out there ....

[resonance]

How much it would cost on average for a tuner to dyno-tune the DFA? Maybe about $80-100?

I'm finding it difficult to blindly tune it I need a wide-band O2 sensor

Also, can someone whose tuned it well, post up their DFA adjustment value for each load opint? I'm just after a bit of a very rough guide. I have a S13 SR20DET with full exhaust so anyone with similar hardware would be desired but not required

[xRHETTx]

Hey you should take the whole electronic kit building game one step further and buy a AFR meter kit from that techedge place that was mentioned in another post....

$200 for the kit and $80 for the sensor and you can tune it yourself as many times as you like... Im considering doing this, depends on how nice the taxman is going to be this year. Ive got a feeling he is going to ream me though..

[Sydneykid]

ahh, yes, but thats all the way over in the sticks ...

maybe will have to take a trip out there ....

Sometimes we all have to leave God's country, if only for a short while

[CEF11E]

I decided to check my AFR's after doing my initial test with a wideband sensor. so off i went to a dyno and I had the following issues.

the first run on the dyno, The AFR's were all over the place from 16 to 9 and up and down like a yo yo.

so we gave it another run and it was still all over the place. at this stage i was really worried so i cleared the maps i hade previously made and decided to start from scratch. fine.

did another run with no changes to the Delta Voltage. and it was all over the fricken place, the dyno gut then said the sensor was causing turbulance in the exhaust and that was the problem but it should be ok.

OK my ass!!! i was not going to tune my car without knowing the AFR's. you might as well turd in your air flow meter and say yep its tuned right now.

so i was pissed off i wasted half a day and lost all the maps i had made earlier that were probably fine.

so what to do?

I just want the car tuned properly.

what i need to know is a few details about how you guys tuned with the DFA

as in did you tune it in view mode or run mode?

how did you keep the load points steady?

would someone in sydney be prepared to help me tune my car? like meet me at a dyno place and show me how its done.

there could be beer in it for you

[Sydneykid]

I decided to check my AFR's after doing my initial test with a wideband sensor. so off i went to a dyno and I had the following issues.

the first run on the dyno, The AFR's were all over the place from 16 to 9 and up and down like a yo yo.

so we gave it another run and it was still all over the place. at this stage i was really worried so i cleared the maps i hade previously made and decided to start from scratch. fine.

did another run with no changes to the Delta Voltage. and it was all over the fricken place, the dyno gut then said the sensor was causing turbulance in the exhaust and that was the problem but it should be ok.

OK my ass!!! i was not going to tune my car without knowing the AFR's. you might as well turd in your air flow meter and say yep its tuned right now.

so i was pissed off i wasted half a day and lost all the maps i had made earlier that were probably fine.

so what to do?

I just want the car tuned properly.

what i need to know is a few details about how you guys tuned with the DFA

as in did you tune it in view mode or run mode?

how did you keep the load points steady?

would someone in sydney be prepared to help me tune my car? like meet me at a dyno place and show me how its done.

there could be beer in it for you

Tuning the DFA is piss easy, it's only a voltage changer after all. All up mine took 20 minutes to tune. The method;

1. Do a power run with zero correction, took about 8 seconds

2. Closely look at the A/F ratios from that power run. Took about 3 minutes

3. Pick a range where the A/F ratios were fairly constant but very crappy, which in my case was 4,000 to 4,500 rpm where they were just under 10 to 1.

4. Do another run and use the dyno load to hold it in that rpm range and apply correction (lower the voltage signal to the ECU) in "Run" mode until the A/F ratios were between 11 and 12 to 1. Make sure there is no pre-ignition with those corrections. Took about 5 seconds.

5. Make careful note of that correction, about 5% made 1.5 A/F ratio diff. Then in "View" mode makes guesses for the other load points. Took about 5 minutes.

6. Do a power run, and tidy up the A/F ratios as required. Took about 20 seconds.

7. Finished.

The real trick is #5, noting how much correction does what to the A/F ratios. That reduces the time under load on the dyno and it is very fast loading up corrections in "View" mode. Doing it in "Run" is tricky and much slower.

I had no wild changes in the standard A/F ratios, just very predictable Nissan rich and retard mapping at higher than standard airflow levels. That's why the DFA (and SAFC) works so well on Nissans.

[CEF11E]

Thanks SK that does help me quite a lot

I will give it another go on a dyno that actually works!

[AlexCim]

I dropped into jaycar today and bought the IEBC and DFA, ill borrow mates controller/cable for now as its out of stock until August!!

Ill get the stagea next week (just buying it of Kirra101 now) and hopefully by then i will have made the DFA. Ill borrow my mechanics A/F meter and do some road tuning next weekend

SK, whats your opinion of road tuning the DFA? Do i need something that logs the air fuel ratio so it can be properly smoothed? If thats the case, i may just get it done on the dyno after i find a cheap GTT intercooler too

[ian]

just a silly qestion which I've been meaning to ask..

I know the O2 sensor in the car is narrow band (not wide), but could you use that (via the consult interface) to do the tuning required for the DFA?

- and if you need some log data, you can take me for a drive with my laptop plugged in (I'm in Melb) :-)

Ian

[AlexCim]

Just need to ask, do i need to solder the 4Mhz thingo into the PCB at the top via a pin?

the guy who posted pics soldered it onto something, do i need to do that? Apart from that, im done!

Boost controller tomorrow, car should be here late this week

[AlexCim]

Oh also, to add, does the same go for EBC and the 10 and 20 Mhz things? In the pictures, they dont look like they did solder them to the pcb at the top...

Also, how did you hook up the EBC in the stagea? I guess ill just dig through this thread, would be good if someone could clean it up. I see the photo on page 2, but is the restricter in there somewhere? It isnt is it? Otherwise the restricter would limit boost before the EBC right?

[Sydneykid]

I dropped into jaycar today and bought the IEBC and DFA, ill borrow mates controller/cable for now as its out of stock until August!!

Ill get the stagea next week (just buying it of Kirra101 now) and hopefully by then i will have made the DFA. Ill borrow my mechanics A/F meter and do some road tuning next weekend

SK, whats your opinion of road tuning the DFA? Do i need something that logs the air fuel ratio so it can be properly smoothed? If thats the case, i may just get it done on the dyno after i find a cheap GTT intercooler too

If you have a fast and wide lambda sensor and display you can do it. Bit tricky to drive and tune at the same time, so I use a logging A/F ratio meter like the LM. Go back an couple of posts and have a look how I do it on the dyno, just replace "dyno" with "road". Be carefull, it is easy to get up to warpspeed when chasing the high load point A/F ratios.

[Sydneykid]

just a silly qestion which I've been meaning to ask..

I know the O2 sensor in the car is narrow band (not wide), but could you use that (via the consult interface) to do the tuning required for the DFA?  

- and if you need some log data, you can take me for a drive with my laptop plugged in (I'm in Melb) :-)

Ian

Hi Ian, the standard lambda sensor is both too slow and too narrow to tune with. It really is only accurate around stoich (14 to 1) which is too lean for a turbo engine on power. Good for idle and cruise closed loop running only.

[Sydneykid]

Just need to ask, do i need to solder the 4Mhz thingo into the PCB at the top via a pin?

the guy who posted pics soldered it onto something, do i need to do that? Apart from that, im done!

Boost controller tomorrow, car should be here late this week

Oh also, to add, does the same go for EBC and the 10 and 20 Mhz things? In the pictures, they dont look like they did solder them to the pcb at the top...

The crystals have to be earthed, via their steel cases. Otherwise they can sufffer from interference (car radio for example).

Also, how did you hook up the EBC in the stagea? I guess ill just dig through this thread, would be good if someone could clean it up. I see the photo on page 2, but is the restricter in there somewhere? It isnt is it? Otherwise the restricter would limit boost before the EBC right?

Read my posts, they have all the details.

[AlexCim]

I read it, sweet, thanks.

I am really following in your path, EBC/DFA, pipercross on the way, same with R34 GTT cooler...sway bars on the near future..

You had a head start

[ian]

Hi Ian, the standard lambda sensor is both too slow and too narrow to tune with.  It really is only accurate around stoich (14 to 1) which is too lean for a turbo engine on power.  Good for idle and cruise closed loop running only.

Thanx, I knew there would be an obvious answer..

This wide band logging ones seem to be the go, although they seem to have way too much electronics in them (ie expensive). A modern laptop can keep up with something much faster, so in theory all you would require is a sensor plus a couple of components (to make a stable voltage supply, reference voltage, and rs232 link.. etc)..

Time to get hunting on the net.. :-)

We really should club together in each major city and buy one, as it does sound like such a useful bit of gear.. :-)

[Sydneykid]

Thanx, I knew there would be an obvious answer..  

This wide band logging ones seem to be the go, although they seem to have way too much electronics in them (ie expensive). A modern laptop can keep up with something much faster, so in theory all you would require is a sensor plus a couple of components (to make a stable voltage supply, reference voltage, and rs232 link.. etc)..  

Time to get hunting on the net.. :-)

We really should club together in each major city and buy one, as it does sound like such a useful bit of gear.. :-)

The electronics for a decent/accurate/consistent A/F ratio display are fairly complex. They have to be free air calibrated and preheated for accuracy prior to logging. A lap top would not have the voltage or current capacity to handle even that part.

I did a quick survey a couple of months ago and asked how many people were interested in renting one of ours. We have 2 X LM1's with 4 channel internal logging for around 40 minutes running and serial connection to a lap top (or desk top) for analysis. They also come with a training video, manuals, a long cable (to reach the tail pipe) and a ventury lambda sensor clamp for accurate results. The cost was around $100 a week to cover consumables (lambda sensors & cables mostly) and recalibration, with a $500 deposit refundable on return.

I didn't really get a strong response, I guess because, while you can tune the car perfectly, you don't get the all important (to some people) power reading. Plus it does require a modicum of skill and understanding, that maybe put a few people off.

Since I made that offer we have sold one of the LM1's, it went with the car to a place that has no dynos. I have another one on order (we can't have our only one out all the time) which should be here in a couple of weeks. If you are still interested I will let you know.

[ian]

The electronics for a decent/accurate/consistent  A/F ratio display are fairly complex.  They have to be free air calibrated and preheated for accuracy prior to logging.   A lap top would not have the voltage or current capacity to handle even that part.

Yep, I realise that which why you would need external power and a bit of electronics. But you don't need screens, memory, buttons, etc etc in these days of reasonable laptops - even my old PIII laptop can dump consult figures every 10mSec using less than 5% of it's cpu.. There is no problem doing a couple of thousand samples a second through the serial interface, let alone through the USB one...

Ian

[tang0]

well, i just went and bought myself a wbo2 kit, will take a while to get it all together, but basically its a wide band o2 sensor (bosch) all the electronic gizmos, and it plugs into your laptop for data logging ....

also it has 2 or 4 inputs for more logging ...

all up only cost about $300

will keep you updated with the build process

cheers

[Sydneykid]

well, i just went and bought myself a wbo2 kit, will take a while to get it all together, but basically its a wide band o2 sensor (bosch) all the electronic gizmos, and it plugs into your laptop for data logging ....

also it has 2 or 4 inputs for more logging ...

all up only cost about $300

will keep you updated with the build process

cheers

I had a look at Tech Edge a few months ago, so I will be very interested in how the kit goes together and how it works in the field.

Did you get the 2EO kit?

The Bosch 7057 lambda sensor?

Sensor Connector?

The long (4m) cable?

What are you doing for an exhaust ventury clamp?

Or are you going to plumb the lambda sensor direct into the engine pipe?

When I priced it all up it was $374 (inc insurance, postage and GST). For around $150 more I could get the LM1, ready to go. So I am not sure which is the right decision.