Turbo upgrade or not?

[GTSpec]

Well i am getting my R32 GTR rebuilt this friday (well starting anyways) at Racepace.... i have been advised to do a standard rebuild as i will be using this as a daily driver and not a sunday toy car, hence forged pistons were not recommended due to rattle and need for warm up. I think problem is the main bearing. anyway, will find out exact problem once he pulls it apart....

One thing that has got me stumped is whether to upgrade the turbos or not.....

Ideally i dont want to upgrade but i have been told that if/when the turbos go and the ceramic wheels shatter, it can cause damage to the engine, therefore wasting more money. What are the chances of this happening?

If it is advisable to change the turbos, i will bite the bullet..... I am thinking of getting HKS GT-SS and PowerFC. Have been told to get SARD 700cc inj and an upgraded fuel pump. I am thinking of getting the Bosch 044 pump and getting it mounted internally. Thoughts on this setup would be appreciated.

from basic figures, the rebuild will be about $6500, and getting all the extra parts for a turbo upgrade + fit/tune is about $7000, therefore doubling costs.

The car is an 89 GTR.... supposedly 70k. What are your thoughts? Upgrade turbos or leave it and upgrade if they fail?

again, my main concern is the possibility of damage to engine if the turbo does fail...... however having said that, if the turbos fail and i get new turbos, obviously it will be more expensive to get turbos fitted later on rather than while engine is out. Does anyone know the average price of fitment of turbos, injectors, fuel pump and powerfc and tune (labour only)?

In need of help and wise words.

Thanks in advance, Emmanuel

[knore]

Well if your getting the engine done then unleash its full potential by also getting the turbos done, thats my opinion anyways

from what youve said, it sounds like your going to have one nice street gtr when its done

ive had dreams of twin GT-RS's on a GTR :wassup:

[siksII]

definetly do not put the old turbos on, as i know of gtrs that have had damaged motors due to the ceramic exhaust wheel delaminating and shattering making a big mess!

if you dont want to spend big $$ on those gtss's, just get your stock turbos hi flowed(steel wheels) and they will be fine for a long time.

close to 10 hrs labour is usually charged to remove+refit turbos on a gtr

[Scooby]

I've never understood how a loose ex wheel can damage an engine. Sure there will be bits flying everywhere but how do the bits get to the other/intake side of the turbo where they can get into the engine? I've heard this a few times but don't see how it could physically happen.

Cheers

[2LV8ETR]

I was under the impression that the wheel ends up in the exhaust system.

I personally can't see how any piece can force it's way back up the exhaust manifold/header, back through a valve opening (perfect nanosecond timing required), then back into the cylinder where it can cause damage - all the time battling pressurised exhaust gasses. (No animosity or hostility intended here guys)

If somebody has experienced this first hand can they please exlain what damage was caused to the engine as the curiosity is killing this cat, and I assume GTSpec too.

[lwells]

My thoughts is that it sounds like an awful lot of money. No doubt Racepace does excellent work, but I would consider doing some of the work yourself (if you have the ability and tools).

LW.

[Roy]

My thoughts is that it sounds like an awful lot of money.  No doubt Racepace does excellent work, but I would consider doing some of the work yourself (if you have the ability and tools).

LW.

So many ppl on the forum throw figures around, usually mates rates or DIY costs.

For a workshop to remove the engine, strip, measure/order parts/machine/re-assemble engine, install with new gaskets throughout then re-install the engine. Then they have to put in new fluids, filters etc...well i dont think the price is too bad.

Workshops that do things by half end up costing you double:( Things like timing belts, idler bearings, water/oil pumps if required, fuel filters/imjectors, all chepa things on their own but by the time they are bought and installed they all add to the cost. If i was having an engine re-built/installed by a workshop these are the sorts of things that i would expect, and hence be paying for

[lwells]

Roy: I completely agree. I think you have misunderstood the point I was making. There is no doubt that Racepace does excellent work, and they charge fairly for the level of attention to detail they put in to rebuilds, but its still a lot of money. If one has the time, inclination, a little bit of mechanical knowledge and the right tools, you can save yourself a lot of money which can then be spent of further modifications.

My post was not meant to disparrage Racepace, rather to present a cost saving alternative to the thread starter given that so much of the cost is labour.

LW.

[siksII]

I was under the impression that the wheel ends up in the exhaust system.

I personally can't see how any piece can force it's way back up the exhaust manifold/header, back through a valve opening (perfect nanosecond timing required), then back into the cylinder where it can cause damage - all the time battling pressurised exhaust gasses. (No animosity or hostility intended here guys)

If somebody has experienced this first hand can they please exlain what damage was caused to the engine as the curiosity is killing this cat, and I assume GTSpec too.

i have personally seen a gtr on which this happened and it was no doubt the ceramic exh wheel from the rear turbo that ruined the engine, the bores were marked and even the oil pump was damaged. basically when the ceramic wheel let go it smashed against the housing and maybe something to do with the cams in the gtr allowed bits to get sucked back in through a valve opening.

i did not believe it at first either but it was definetly the case, do a search and you will find a few threads about it, some people believe it some people dont. on gtsts it never happens as far as i have seen

[Scooby]

GTSpec;

Sorry if this is simplistic but it really depends on your budget and what you want to do. You've said that ideally you don't want to upgrade the turbos; are you quite happy with the current performance and you understand the limitations of the ceramic units? On the other hand what you've had suggested to you is a fairly stout power package for a lot more money.

Clearly there are economies of scale to be had if the motor is coming to peices anyway as, if you do the turbos now, you won't have to pay the $900 or so mentioned here earlier for r and r down the track. But if you don't want to ever up the power (unlikley?) don't bother.

If you think that you may want more grunt later, a good approach may be to get a set of 2nd hand R34 N1s or rebuilt steel wheel standard turbos, about $3k ish, you can run them with the standard ecu and injectors. Add a set of Trust long dump pipes, about $1000 from Autobarn. That's $4k total, flick the boost restrictor out ($free) you should be able to have some nice power with the standard ecu. You've then achieved the economies of scale as there's nothing to be saved by doing injectors or the PFC while the car is apart. Down the track go for the PFC and inj/ pump if you need/want it.

Just my thoughts.

[siksII]

makes sense to me, just get your turbos hi flowed then they will be safe for more boost if you want it. leave everything else.

[itbmils]

GTSpec

firstly let me just say that I am just finishing a FULL rebuild of my R32 (also 89 model) - I opted to upgrade the turbos, and managed to pick up a pair of N1s off an R34 for about $2k. For more details on what I have actually done have a look at ...

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...ead.php?t=62632

I did a full rebuild using Forged pistons, N1 bearings, polished – balanced – linished – shot peened everything. N1 water + N1 Oil – and did some porting work up top. I also added a pair on non-turbulence dump pipes (already have front pipe and exhaust), full metal gasket kit from Tomei and replaced anything else that move and is attached to the block. These engines are 15 years old after all.

I can CONFIRM that all up including parts and labor – you are looking at a LAZY $10K, not including the turbos ('cause I already had them). I sourced parts myself, both 2nd hand, from eBay and through some contacts at Nissan – but the labor charge alone is more than half the total bill.

Brace yourself – I though I had budgeted for everything – but I still blew out by a good couple of grand

The good news is that as a result of the feed back I have received from my earlier post, I'm expecting a solid 250-280awkw with std injectors and fuel pump. My solution is a little over engineered for this much power, but it allows me to add injectors/044/bigger FMIC and PFC down the track and push up into the 300+awks with the peace of mind that the base engine will tolerate that much power.

My thoughts are – do it now if you can afford it – I would not want to pay to rebuild this thing twice.

[GTSpec]

Thats the thing... i can afford it.... money is not a problem as i am borrowing on LOC so interest rate is only ~7-8%....

I just dont want to have to rebuild an engine again while running on stockish power... if ur gonna blow an engine, at least have fun killing it hey? i didnt even trash mine around and its costing me buckets....

Ive decided to go ahead with the works.... just dunno if i should bother with the extra 600 for the greddy extension pipes over the HKS dump pipes. also, will the greddy pipes fit a HKS GT-SS??

Also, i am submitting my order to greenline, would anyone in Melbourne like parts with my order (save postage)? Call me 0403 232 338... will send tomorrow morning/late tonite so dun dilly dally

[cameron]

Do it once do it properly!

Forged internal's are a must - Its a reliability thing, plus it might hold its value a bit better if you goto sell it later on, as forgies are much stronger than standard cast piston's.

If money's not a problem then go for it and do the turbo's/dump's aswel

Jun

[GTSpec]

nah dun want forged.... basically i was told that they are not ideal for daily driver as u need to warm them up to get them to the right size so they dont rattle about too much when cold

[lwells]

nah dun want forged.... basically i was told that they are not ideal for daily driver as u need to warm them up to get them to the right size so they dont rattle about too much when cold

You do get a little bit of slap with forged pistons, but I would seriously reconsider given the amoun tof money you are spending. It will cost you a fortune to rip the engine down to install forgies later when you eventually find you want more power.

Maybe some with forgies could show you what they are like on startup?

LW.

[600hp]

.Our engine doesn't make any noises at all. so there is no waiting for the engine to warm up for the noises to stop.i've been told that if the clearances are out thats when you get pistion slap.

mate heaps of my friends cars have forged pistons and they have no noise iwould suggest you at least get the pistons done, i would get the rods as well as you don't want to have to pull the engine back out again.

[R31Nismoid]

Well i am getting my R32 GTR rebuilt this friday (well starting anyways) at Racepace....  

One thing that has got me stumped is whether to upgrade the turbos or not.....

Emmanuel... if your taking your can to Ben (as so many of have done)

Talk it all over with him. He has played around with most setups and knows whats hot and whats not.

If your thinking about doing turbos... tell Benno and he will reccomend the best setup based on what you want to achieve. He wont stuff you around reccomending the biggest most expensive parts if you dont need them.

Thats why im one of his 100's of happy customers.

Do it once do it properly!

:werd:

[R31Nismoid]

nah dun want forged.... basically i was told that they are not ideal for daily driver as u need to warm them up to get them to the right size so they dont rattle about too much when cold

who said that?

[GTSpec]

Ben at racepace. Said clearance on forgies have to be larger to accomodate for higher expansion rate due to difference in metal used. Going ahead without internal upgrade and getting turbo upgrade.

Most definitely will not be after more power after this... never intended on having this car for over 2 years anyway.