Women, 4WDs and carparks....... a recipe for disaster!

[krawler]

Specific question to Cam here.... Why do you have a 4x4? What does it do that another car cant do in your specific occupation and needs? Not trying to have a go at you specifically, but I'm interested in your reasoning.

So many people try to justify their 4x4 ownership with repsonses like "safety" (which its been proven time and time again it isnt), "space" (which compared to a falcon or commodore wagon, the 4x4s tend to have LESS space) or "4x4 ability" (yet they use it MAYBE once a year to hit straddie which any 2x4 car can do anyway)....

I drive a lot on the gateway and I can say without hyperbole that 4x4s are the worst of any demographic for right hand lane hogging, pushing into queues... basically anything that would be considered "bully boy" tactics. Why is it that as soon as someone hops in there 4x4 they feel that social skills like courtesy and consideration of others can be thrown out the window?

Its ok, I amuse myself by not being bullied. Work vans are so great, you dont care what happens to it. Whereas the 4x4 owner in his $80,000 street-driven, gold-plated-badges and mud-tires-that-last-5,000k-on-the-street 4x4 sure does

[NismoGirl]

Hahah I remember those photos... I had to get into the right hand lanes to get the best vantage point.

IIRC there were even another few 4wd's that weren't in those pics in other lanes.

[Del Sol]

....except that the vehicle class itself causes problems and it's popularity is on the rise - partly because those subsidies makes them more affordable than they should be.

Fark yeah, thats the thing. If the 4WD's were taxed the same as other people movers, then they wouldn't be such an attractive option.

[Bobjones]

Nice photos...

So true of the M1...seems to be STACKS of forbies down the coast especially of late...maybe they are returning home after a weekend of bush bashing.

I actually go to Fraser etc with some really good mates that have forbies, but the fact is they drive them and bought them to use them. The other fact is that they also have a drag car or two and a daily driver!!

Oh and to sort of answer partly for a good mate, Cam uses his 4wd to go ont the beach...can't see a falcon doing that...even that 4wd one with about as much ground clearance as my last corolla...

[The_Paladin]

even if you take a 4WD to the beach and use it in the correct conditions, that's still no excuse for the government to let them on the roads............

Why cant i drive (if i owned one) and non-streetlegal car to the racetrack for my hobby?? because they're carelessly dangerous. SO ARE 4WD'S. who cares if it's your hobby? it harms the enviroment anyway!! they should get them transported like the rest of the car enthusiasts.

small 4WD's are a bit of a oddity, i mainly refer to the single mum tanks.

[EVO Cam]

Why did I buy our Honda MDX, many & varied reasons, predominantly because it is a family car which we can take offroad. I enjoy taking my family up the beach on Bribie Island & I go to Hervey Bay on business monthly & often take my family. We quite often go to Fraser Island also.

My wife & I test drove literally dozens of different vehicles before we purchased the Honda & at the end of the day, Ang was happy in this car as it was easier to drive & more comfortable than almost anything else.

Our car is as easy to drive & park than any dunnydore or falcoon, has better re-sale value, more features & creature comforts & is more functional (in particular 7 seats with the 3rd row that comes up from the floor) - not many passenger "wagons" have this feature.

On second thoughts, I'm not going to continue justifying my purchase, last time I looked, these vehicles are legal, it's a free world & there is no way the government will implement legislation to change the law in regard to this area.

& to the joker that said they harm the environment, what planet did you come from.... a car is a car mate, no matter what type.

I retierate my earlier point which MOST of you are missing, it's not the vehicle that causes accidents 9 times out of 10, it's the driver.

My wife & myself have driven high performance cars & 4wd's all our lives, I have been raised in a family that always had 4wd's, and none of us have ever had an accident or been involved in one, other than when people have done something to us.

So why don't most of you build a bridge & get on with life.....

[krawler]

has better re-sale value, more features & creature comforts & is more functional (in particular 7 seats with the 3rd row that comes up from the floor) - not many passenger "wagons" have this feature.

These are reasonings I can understand and appreciate, and you being you, I'm not surprised they were part of it For most consumers resale isnt a high priority I wouldnt think, but once you start using vehicles for work and can afford to sell/buy every couple of years, resale is a big issue.

On second thoughts, I'm not going to continue justifying my purchase, last time I looked, these vehicles are legal, it's a free world & there is no way the government will implement legislation to change the law in regard to this area.

Thats like Americans saying "its legal to buy guns and ammo, therefore there is no reason why I shouldnt buy guns and ammo"... Just because its legal doesnt make it right, so its not fair to pull that argument. Everyone has a responsibility toward the environment and other road users. If we all stuck to the letter of law, not the spirit of the law, we'd end up with frivalous law suits making the plantiffs millions, guilty criminals getting off scott-free because of minor technocalities(sp?), companies wraughting consumers and share holders of millions in 'golden handshake' payments before declaring bankruptcy.... Yep, thats what would happen... Err.... wait

I retierate my earlier point which MOST of you are missing, it's not the vehicle that causes accidents 9 times out of 10, it's the driver.  

Thats not really the point that some people are making.... They (and myself included) are saying that while a 4x4 certainly does have a higher statistical chance of crashing due to its poor handling and high center of gravity, more to the point is that fact that crashes are much more likely to be fatalities or permanent injuries when a 4x4 is involved. People trying to justify their 4x4 purchase as being "safer" (which you are not I know) are deluding themselves. Passanger cars are far safer in accidents compared to 4x4s due to their crumple zones and non-rigid body (but a rigid passanger cell) absorbing the impact. Not to mention the low center of gravity prevents roll overs, and the fact they are typically almost 1 tonne lighter means there is less mass moving (and thus less energy) that requires absorbing.

Dont take this as a pointed argument at YOU personally, you have valid reasons for buying a 4x4 and thats fine. Its more a social commentary and despair at the way current treads are heading. At the end of the day, if everyone is in a 4x4 for safety and the desire to actually use its 4x4 capabilities one day a year (in most cases in a situation where 2x4 would do anyway) we'll all be driving oversized land barges with poor handling and crap fuel economy, and when it comes to fatalities they will skyrocket.

Sorry, I spend a lot of time on the road driving from sunny coast to gold coast and of course all of brisbane region (almost 35,000k a year in work time alone) and I see first hand the way various stereotypes act on our roads and the problems they cause. You may be the exception to the rules of this stereotype, but you are exactly that - an exception, not the rule. The valid reasons you might have for owning a 4x4 do not apply to every other 4x4 owner, so appreciate the argument against 4x4s for what it is, not a personal attack.

[jlnewton]

Woah, just to put this thread back into perspective I have attached a pic of the damage......huge huh? :wassup: I am more upset with the fact that the woman thought she could just drive away thinking that no one had seen her, thats just plain dishonest. Its sux to to think that I can't leave any of my vehicles (except the gemini) anywhere without the risk of someone damaging it and being that low to just leave without taking responsibility for their actions. People who have seen my vehicles know how I maintain cars and just because Joe Bloggs couldn't give a stuff about their car doesn't mean they shouldn't respect others that do. Seeing this mark on my car just makes me cringe everytime I look at it......can't stand it, just want it fixed now!

As for the title of the thread, well I thought it sounded pretty catchy and it suited my mood at the time. I personally don't see the point of so many 4WDs on our roads, I am a surveyor and my little gemini van spends each and every day off road, and to date I have only bogged it twice. I personally would hate to have to drive one of these huge, poor handling, slow, shitty turning circle equiped fuel muching hulks around everyday. But people choose to do so. I am sure there are just as many people, if not more, who question the logic of having a car that can break all posted QLD speed limits in about 6 sec, or why we go modifying such cars to make them go even quicker (often with little or no regard to improving our own driving skills, upgrading suspension, upgrading brakes or tuning them correctly so they aren't spewing loads of rich black smoke everywhere under higher than stock boost situations) or wonder why on earth I went to so much trouble importing my 2 skylines all the way from Japan and paid for them upfront off an auction sheet, a couple of photos and a little advise from someone I don't really know......... There are a few things being said in this thread that I am sure we all agree are a tad hypocrital....

[Eug]

woah... a bit close to the headlights there jason.

[The Dan]

I think the statistic says something like 40 % of accidents involving 4WD's are fatal to the 4WD driver. While only something like 23% of accidents involving passenger cars are fatal to the driver of the passenger car.

4WD's should be allowed on our roads but there should be some restrictions like not allowing women to drive them......or any car for that matter.

As for the environment...if you wanna protect a Koala...sell your line and buy a pushbike. Most 4WD's have better fuel economy than our Skylines.

All that asside. I think really that this topic is more rooted in the fact that people should take responsibilty for their actions. Anyone is potentially dangerous in ANY car, no matter what it is. I can drive a motorbike at 200 km an hour and plough through a crowded bus stop and kill 5 people. Just because it's small, doesn't mean it can't do damage...it's the same as 4WD's. But by buying a vehicle, no matter what make or model, your responsibilities are different for each one.

4WD's must be more careful when driving in small spaces and merging and to keep a better lookout for smaller vehicles. Therefore, I propose better driver training when purchasing one of these vehicles.

Sports cars are more powerful and can accellerate very quickly, therefore, drivers must undergo better training when purchasing them. These drivers must learn to only use their power when needed.

Bottom line is.....who cares what car you drive....GET SOME FRIGGIN DRIVER TRAINING.

[jlnewton]

woah... a bit close to the headlights there jason.

hmmmmm, I know. If you look real close in the pic you can actually see a scratch on the lense. I am hoping it will polish out otherwise she is gonna buy me a new headlight too....hehe. Shouldn't have picked such a fussy car owner to scratch. :wassup:

[Silver'sR33]

Hard to tell from just that pic, but what colour was the 4wd? It's definitely scratched thru the paint on the front bar?

Agreed about the dishonesty part...if someone did that to my car I wouldn't be TOO angry (so long as there's insurance etc) because I know that accidents happen. But if they did it then tried to get away with it, THAT would make me far, far more upset than the accident itself.

Yeah prolly true about people arguing against performance cars, though I still think 4wds are objectively worse for everyone involved in most driving situations.

[jlnewton]

Yep, definatley scratched through the paint and even taken a fair scrape of the plastic away too, nice and deep. The 4wd was silver but it was an older pajero. It was just the rear bumper on her car which made contact, it was high enough to just graze the top of the front bar. If she kept going it would have gone staight through the headlight.

[SmoothLine]

No good Jason

I had the same kind of thing once... old lady in a carpark. The end result was my old wobbly right rear rim

[krawler]

I personally would hate to have to drive one of these huge, poor handling, slow, shitty turning circle equiped fuel muching hulks around everyday.  But people choose to do so.  I am sure there are just as many people, if not more, who question the logic of having a car that can break all posted QLD speed limits in about 6 sec, or why we go modifying such cars to make them go even quicker

The difference is that if the said "sports car" is being driven normally, it in no way impacts on other drivers.

A "sports car" is the same size as a "normal" car at worst. The chasis is built for handling, the brakes are made for stopping quickly, the cars are (on a whole) better maintained, the drivers are (on the whole) more interested in driving than Joe Average who sees it as getting from A to B and the fact they are faster is often a bonus, the ability to accelerate away from a potential problem is another option you can choose to take in a crisis.

Fuel / pollution I agree with, a "sports car" uses more fuel than a "normal" car. But given the correct tune, which most of us have, this is only a problem at WOT. At any other stage there is no more pollution than a "normal" car, and certainly no more than a heavy 4x4.

[The_Paladin]

when i the joker commented on the enviroment i also ment asides from fuel comsumption (which is a problem with them) people ripping up the beaches/offroad with them. there have been reports saying that they're damaging the ecosystem of these places people use them............

[Eug]

GTR (4wd) vs Pajero (4wd)

Pajero 1 : GTR nil

ohh and driving GTR's and GTS4s on beaches is totally fine. its like skidpan but with

added salt and preservatives.

[pentae]

Dont you love it when you pull up to a single lane intersection, your sitting there waiting to make your move, and this massive bloody 4wd screams up next to you, obtrusively blocking your view, and you literally cannot do anything until the 4wd driver goes first. Its particularly annoying when your making a left hand turn because you have to stick your nose out (dangerously), or wait for the big 4wd to cross the intersection.

It's got some crazy mum behind the wheel thats still dialed up on caffeine from her coffee club appointment with the girls.

This is why I now make sure my car is positioned in the middle of the lane or as close to the opposite side of where I'm indicating. Though there is still the rare ocassion that the 4wd owners from coming up next to you, usually oblivious of where your indicating.

I think 4wd's are a major problem on our roads, and unless the owner has a commercial purpose (eg a cattle farmer), owners should pay triple the standard rego, and the extra money will go back into the environment and roads.

The same reason I think how speeding fines should go back into fixing up the condition and surfacing of the roads, not into buying more speed cameras and donuts.

[ibuckout2]

well hows this then, the cops gave me a random the other day, said to put my bull bar back on the truck it came off, told me my car was to low and that i need a permit for everything not standard, oops bye bye piglet, i got to go i'm in a hurry and left with all 178 decibles ringing in his ears, fckin cops!!! and for the whole anti 4x4 thing, they got their place just the same as anything else, we all have to live that little bit easier, comfortable, and secure

[krawler]

What an incredibly well thought out post.

The standards of grammar, spelling and the overall literacy skills of this country never ceases to amaze.