UAS RB20/25 Intake Plenum.

[browny]

wazz

RIPS don't have a web site as such. They are members of both this forum and SDU so a PM is your best bet. They are also in NZ.

[DETurbine]

Give me $500....and I will make you a peice just like theirs that will flow just as much and even come with velocity stacks to help out the flow even more.

[Wazz]

i dont know you from a bar of soap.. even tho its half the price (frieght to aus) i'd rather buy from a known local (australia) trader

[Wazz]

i dont know you from a bar of soap.. even tho its half the price (frieght to aus) i'd rather buy from a known local (australia) trader also i have a rb20.. the runners are different compared to a rb25

[Sydneykid]

I do get your point, and as I had said they are making a good manifold, but sorry for the price it is totally not worth anyones money. You want me to make a manifold just like theirs that flows just as much if not more. I have the shops out here that can get the perfect airflow for these RB's and I can do it for like I had said $500 or less. Not sure about there, but out her in the states, metal fabrication is every where. Especially here in the midwest where I am located. They have state of the art machines that can make it just as easy and precise as any other place out there and will do it for a reasonable price. The 27hp increase isn't bad, but majority of the aftermarket plenums out there will open up the power just as much.  I have seen simple square style plenums on a few 2jz's that increased it to a 20hp gain from a stock form 2jz, it's actually the same design as what I intend to get.

The thing that upsets me and is why I made the negative comment is because I know how much these cost to be produced and probably a pretty good clue of what they put into them.....why they are trying to get so much profit out of them shows how they really operate and treat others. Every business is in it for the money, but most are not that stupid to increase the price another $1,000 (USD) on top of their build cost. I am sure that they are welding these together on their own, so I have a pretty good clue on how they are getting these plates and the top dome cut outs.

Hmmmm, I thought my post was pretty specific but you seem to have missed the point. Let me have another go....

I don't give a rat's how much extra power is claimed by fitting a plenum. I could stick an ugly, lousy flowing, 10 litre square box on an engine and get more max power at one rpm point. But it would stuff up the response something terrible. The trick is getting as small a plenum as possible, for the fastest possible response, that also flows equally to all 6 cylinders and doesn't loose any power at any rpm point over the standard one. Now that's a worthwhile upgrade.

I strongly suggest you take a picture of the base of the UAS plenum along to your local fabricator and ask him how much it would cost to buy the piece of 18 mmm billett alloy to start with. Then ask him how much he would charge to machine the 6 trumpets into it. What angle and taper would you suggest he use? Machine the bolt flanges. Deck for gasket seal. The top is the easy part.

Don't get me wromg I am not in anyway saying that the UAS plenum would be my choice. There is still plenty of data to be provided before I will accept that it is in any way better, at my (standard internals) power target, than the standard one.

PS; I'll take one of the plenums you are getting made, as long as the price is what you quoted in the above post. "Every business is in it for the money, but most are not that stupid to increase the price another $1,000 (USD) on top of their build cost " Since UAS is selling the plenum for $US1150 that means you can get one made for $US150. My cheques in the mail if that's the case. :wassup:

[DETurbine]

Was thinking more on the lines as if they were welding their own plenums. I can get one made as I had stated....for less then $500. Just need to go ahead and ask them if they will draw back the price if we get a group buy from them. Will talk to them allot more this week, as I have not talked to them for a few months about some things.

[Wazz]

you are in the states i dont think to many people would be to keen on a 'overseas' group buy

[GTRgeoff]

Mate i appreciate what you are doing with your 240, and what you plainly see as value for money in the objective however I must agree with SK on all of his points. I myself am attempting to find the line of cost versus benefit with the RB series engine and I am prepared to suffer engine failures, and the dissapointment that goes with it, but I can afford it, even though I often don't like it. Fortunately I came across SAU as it opened up a number of resources for the ideal parts and places to buy (Thanks SK). I also do all of my own engine building so I can definitely appreciate that too.

I have to point out that it's cheap and easy to copy someone elses design where a significant amount of Intellectual Property has been developed. I'ts also highly unethical and downright illegal. They have put the effort into establishing an optimised solution and spent the money on testing and in a commercial sense, have decided when enough of the final solution has been achieved to be commercially viable. I think John is pushing for a greater percentage of the best solution than many others, including that well known brand that is being used as somewhat of a benchmark. As a rule of thumb, 50% effort/cost will get an 80% solution but the last 20% will cost as much again, so he now has to amortize the cost of development over a limited production run, and still make a profit to make it worthwhile. Law of diminishing returns I'm afraid. Trust me I have been spending millions of Aussie tax dollars on smart solutions for several years now but the customers always want more for less.

Also I have a detailed background in aerodynamics and fluid mechanics and have designed and tested on programs involved in everything from water based submersible systems to supersonic shock tunnels where the problems of incompressible airflow arise, so I understand fluid flow a little better than most. Sure chucking more boost at a problem may result in the power you want, but it is not elegant or economical in a technical sense and there are those who will appreciate the possible benefits of the UAS plenum.

In your case, the airbox you intend to use may be the limit of what you see as value for money, but when you get on the track and someone has that little extra jump out of a corner, or can control the power that little bit better on a critical sweeper while you are struggling with grip and control due to unsteady power deliver (yes I have been there and a drop of 3-4psi of boost cured some of the problem and lowered lap times a couple of seconds) then this may be the right solution, especially after spending many tens of thousands of dollars in the first place just to get onto the track.

Horses for courses and not everyone will want to spend the bucks to get the better solution, but some will, and I have got one eye firmly locked on this one. Maybe after I play with a GTR 6 throttle/plenum conversion to complement the twin turbo conversion.

[DETurbine]

I will not be using my car for the autocross or anything like that. I am using it for drag and that is it, so getting the best response is not my number one goal. My setup is going to be working perfect for me and I am not going to spend that much more to get a little bit more response and a few more horse. Not sure about over there, but people over here in the states are into building their own and I have seen the exact same design plenums as what I am doing and they have got great results.

I too am building my own motor, just taking it to the machine shop to get all the machine work done, then me and a few friends will be putting it back together, fixing my tranny, and fabricating all the parts for my turbo setup and so on. I guess you can just call me a cheap DIY kind of guy, but it has been working for me and my friends for some time now.

[Sydneykid]

I am using it for drag and that is it

So you are never going to drive it on the street?

[Roy]

The thing that upsets me and is why I made the negative comment is because I know how much these cost to be produced and probably a pretty good clue of what they put into them.....why they are trying to get so much profit out of them shows how they really operate and treat others.

I have no idea what UAS will make profit wise for this product...and this isnt specific defence of UAS, but generally. The forum is full of ppl that do things for a buck fitty, and good luck to them. Thats the point of the forum, knowledge sharing that will lead to improved performance without broken cars or wallets:thumbsup:

Now i wont presume ot know anything about fabrication shops in the states, never been there, i buy crap loads of stuff from there for work, but i dont know the day to day stuff re-labour, tooling etc.

Working in the engineering industry in Aus, i can tell you this sort of work is expensive. The plenum trumpets / base looks to be machined from billet aluminium, so there is a significantly higher cost as a result of programming , setup, machining time and wasteage. Then you have the welded top section, which depending on run size and jigging, well again that setup all adds to the cost. Assembly?

Then there is the cost of procuring the materials!

Its not a fold/bend/grind, weld then grind job that isnt bery repeatable even with jigs.

Ok so thats the nuts and bolts cost, then you have the costs associated with getting it right, flow bench testing etc. Sure the results may not be 100% real world accurate, but at least its a measurable/repeatable measurement which allows refinement before you start going to the said expensive manufacture cost (Especially for one or two off) just to test it on a car, to find that...woops, it would work better if we do this, or it sits a bit close the master cylinder, or it stops access to the oil fiter etc etc.

So you have the R&D if you will costs, the manufacture and courier costs, then a workshop is allowed to turn a dollar if their doors are to stay open. So on the surface of things you may think they are a bit on the XXX side, like i said i dont know ... just thinking out loud, but im sure costs have been absorbed as part of company overheads getting this thing right...so its natural when they are hit the market you will charge accordingly.

[Boosted Zed]

Exactly Roy and I don't have big pockets to hold the money it's more for tools. In case you want to know since I opened UAS about 9 years ago I have only taken 1 week's holiday a year until this year I took two. I have three young daughters. I have invested many hundreds of thousands of dollars in this business and any profits go back into stock and equipment. I also spend probably way too much money on testing and on my race car. I am not in it for the money as my wage I take is very small. Bit of a sore point when someone tries to imply I am a rip off and just trying to make money.

In the automotive industry margins are very tight I notice when comparing to others and also labour rate considering the premises, equipment, tools, service manuals etc required. I occasionally have customers who are in IT and have no to very small equipment costs and charge way more than we do an hour for example or other tradesmen that I use at home to fix washing machine etc and often spend only half an hour or less and charge a full hour plus travel cost or photo copy machine service guy who spends fifteen minutes charges $130 an hour plus travel. On weekends I often see himn in his Ferrari or Porsche. I know this is not in all cases just a comparrison. The very same guy said hey you did not quite spend two hours on the car I was watching. Or you quoted 3 hours to do the job and only took 2.5 so that is what I am paying, but if you quote 3 hours and problems happen and takes 3.5 or 4 hours, they say well that is all I am paying for.

Then Roy as you mention big piece of billet alloy base plate and throttle plate and throttle cable plate NOT cheap. To ad to this set up and testing and designing, copying is much cheaper. Also as mentioned I have this handicap called overheads. If doing from home then do't have to pay a portion for rent whcih by the way is over $10,000 a month for starters. But then you get warranty, service packing advice etc from a performance shop with workshop, for testing and fitting etc etc

[Roy]

LOL..my old job in Sydney had orbital welding equipment and some pretty flash equip for the pharmaceutical industry, we use to rock up to jobs with over $200,000 worth of equipment to get the job done right, all in the back of a ute/van. And we had trouble charging a tradesman with that equipment out at $60.50, and engineering at $85

Engineering industry in this country really does struggle with its perceived value. I see many similarities in the automotive industry:(

[Boosted Zed]

He you guys are cheap, you must have cheap rent or very efficient as could not opperate for long charging $60 bones an hour in Sydney.

Can you fix zeds too? He he.

[B-Man]

Keep up the good work John.

These units have the look - and if backed up with back to back dyno numbers, then no-one can argue. Not everyone has access to the kit required to fabicate these type of units.

My only concern would be the cost of these unit verses the Greddy unit. However you can't really compare the two flow wise. As the UAS one uses the factory runners which distribute flow evenly until all port flow reach the plenum chamber. This to me, signifies a more even distribution of air to the head.

The Greddy unit on the other hand takes the flow and pushes it accross all ports - hopefully even distibution would occur , but who knows ?

The Greddy unit is cast and is VERY rough on the inside - I don't think this helps flow.

N/A style trumpets on forced induction engines are a bit mysterious - Some people swear by them and others say it is a waste of time. I spent time with one fabricator who claimed big increases du to internal trumpets. He also wanted $3000+ for his custom plenum. I said " show me the % perfomance increase versus the % increase in cost over the Greddy, and if your % increas per dollar is more than the Greddy, I will buy it" - I never heard back from him.

Plenum design is THE MOST controversial issue with Forced induction motors. Pretty much all other aspects of performance mods are easy to quantify. Eg:

550cc / min injectors flow more than 340 cc / min ones

Bigger intercooler lowers inlet temps

Bigger turbos flow more air

Adjustable ECUs are able to more accurately adjust air fuel ratios

Increased cylinder capacity benefits everything

Electonic boost controllers adjust boost more accuratley

Free-er flowing heads are able to increase head air flow

and so on

But Plenums - meh - who knows.

I still don't get how SK can say that the std plenum top doesn't flow more air to the middle two cylinders - you just gotta look at it to see why.....

But hell - I am no engineer and no driver , hence why i have turned to Turbo diesel 4WD power.

Bet my truck would beart any of your Skyline accross the Simpson Desert.

Each to their own.

Cheers & have a grouse day

[Boosted Zed]

Keep up the good work John.

These units have the look - and if backed up with back to back dyno numbers, then no-one can argue. Not everyone has access to the kit required to fabicate these type of units.

My only concern would be the cost of these unit verses the Greddy unit. However you can't really compare the two flow wise. As the UAS one uses the factory runners which distribute flow evenly  until all port flow reach the plenum chamber. This to me, signifies a more even distribution of air to the head.

The Greddy unit on the other hand takes the flow and pushes it accross all ports - hopefully even distibution would occur , but who knows ?

The Greddy unit is cast and is VERY rough on the inside - I don't think this helps flow.

N/A style trumpets on forced induction engines are a bit mysterious - Some people swear by them and others say it is a waste of time. I spent time with one fabricator who claimed big increases du to internal trumpets. He also wanted $3000+ for his custom plenum. I said " show me the % perfomance increase versus the % increase in cost over the Greddy, and if your % increas per dollar is more than the Greddy, I will buy it" - I never heard back from him.

Plenum design is THE MOST controversial issue with Forced induction motors. Pretty much all other aspects of performance mods are easy to quantify. Eg:

550cc  / min injectors flow more than 340 cc / min ones

Bigger intercooler lowers inlet temps

Bigger turbos flow more air

Adjustable ECUs are able to more accurately adjust air fuel ratios

Increased cylinder capacity benefits everything

Electonic boost controllers adjust boost more accuratley

Free-er flowing heads are able to increase head air flow

and so on

But Plenums - meh - who knows.

I still don't get how SK can say that the std plenum top doesn't flow more air to the middle two cylinders - you just gotta look at it to see why.....

But hell - I am no engineer and no driver , hence why i have turned to Turbo diesel 4WD power.

Bet my truck would beart any of your Skyline accross the Simpson Desert.

Each to their own.

Cheers & have a grouse day

James from Abrasive Flow Engineering has the figures for the stock plenum and it was a massive difference on flow bench test which is a good indicator. I will get him to dig them out when he flow tests the UAS plenums.

[600hp]

Guys i saw this plenum being designed from day one.also the one which should be availible for the Aussie VL RB30.

These Plenum's would have to be one of the best looking, and would have some of the best design work in them for RB's.The only reason we did not get one was because they were not yet availible for the RB26.

i know there was some great results for the RB30 at the time, and i believe every KW that they pull out of a RB25.Also i'm not sure if this has been mentioned but i know for a fact the intercooler the kits were originally designed with would beat most if not all the aftermarket coolers out there.i can't back these statesments up, as i've swarn to keep a secret.All i can say i've seen the kits and yes they are worth it.

.

[Alf]

A few months ago I would have been one of the callers enquiring about these plenoms.

I have purchased from UAS many times before and have always been satisfied with the quality. When it comes to custom plenoms I'm a bit iffy about buying something I havent seen results of dyno's etc.... Ultimately behind the wheel is where it matters and I would want to take a 33 GtST with one of these plenoms for spin as my decision maker.

ATM i'll sit on the fence and observe.:spcartman

[superclarkey]

Umm, guys wonder if you can help me, i've posted before about trying to get an aftermarket plenum, i'm not so bothered about more performace, just not loosing any ect, i.e the same as the stock unit.

My reason is that i can't get my RB24DET (RB20DET with GTR crank and rods ) to find under the bonnet of my 180sx as i've had the engine moved back into the bulk head for the front v-mounted intercooler, as i have the S15 conversion front the bonnet is lower and will not shut as it is :Wack:

I wanted a Greddy Rb20 plenum but i can't find one anywere, i'm a little worried about buying one like this as it may look nice and shinny but thats not what i'm after.

Sorry i've not had time to read all 5 pages.

Thanx you for you help

superclarkey

[lwells]

superclarkey: Why don't you start a seperate thread rather than hi-jacking this one? This is a very interesting thread that shouldn't be junked up with crap.

Moreover, if you can't be bothered reading five pages, I doubt most people can be bothered responding to your post.

LW.