R34gtt Intercooler Into Stagea

[Jay95R33]

just a thought here ...

i'm sure its physically possible to install 2 x r33 standard intercoolers into the space occupied by the single one at the moment, one would have to sit behind the other one, so the air passes through the first one, then the second ... not sure how much this would affect it, but it means you double the surface area of the ic ...

any thoughts anyone ?

Good idea, but there's two problems. The stock R33 coolers don't flow very well at anything above stock boost. It's the design and size of the fins/tubes in the cooler itself, so you'll still have the problem of it not cooling very well above stock boost.

Then there's the flow restriction. Putting two in series will increase the restriction. If you was to use two you'll be better off putting them in parrallel so they share the air flow.

J

[Jay95R33]

Nice - an intercooler fully optioned with a Sony Ericcson mobile phone attachment  :wassup:  (Some new way to "dial up" the boost?)

LOL - intercooler with BLING

[tang0]

Good idea, but there's two problems.  The stock R33 coolers don't flow very well at anything above stock boost.  It's the design and size of the fins/tubes in the cooler itself, so you'll still have the problem of it not cooling very well above stock boost.

Then there's the flow restriction.  Putting two in series will increase the restriction.  If you was to use two you'll be better off putting them in parrallel so they share the air flow.

J

now there is an interesting concept, putting them in parallel ....

hmm, i have a feeling that it would be easier to whack in an fmic ...

[Jay95R33]

There was a bloke on SDU that welded to in parallel to make a FMIC. He had good results from it, but now-a-days you can get a generic FMIC pretty cheap.

[burkey22]

Where do you buy performance side mount intercoolers? Roughly how much are they?

[Sydneykid]

hey sk ,

can you dyno and test the new i/c on its on , maybe inlet/outlet temps . Im curious as to if there would any substantial improvement .

cheers

It's a fair bit of work to set up proper before and after air temps, drill holes in pipes and set up sealed inserts for the probes. Plus I am not really concerned about its cooling ability. I will however be able to determin the improvement in restriction. The boost will rise in direct proportion to the lower restriction, as I am using the IEBC. It isn't an aim type of controller, the turbo will produce the same airflow, but more of it should reach the plenum so the guage will read higher.

Should be interesting:cheers:

[Brazen]

Where do you buy performance side mount intercoolers? Roughly how much are they?

ARC, Blitz and Trust I know do them - not sure about others... as to where to get them - there's a brand new ARC one for sale on the For Sale thread (search for "ARC" or whatever you want)... I PMd the guy and its still for sale, plus he's going overseas in three weeks and really wants to sell it... so open to offers - he was asking $1000, so potential to get it cheap I was gonna grab it - but looking at spending $ elsewhere - so will let one of you guys pick it up... however is for ER34 - so maybe Series 2 only dunno - although SK is fitting an R34 sidemount to his Series 1 - so probably able to be done... ??.

Other than that - try emailing Alan at Nengun to source one. They arent much cheaper for the part than the same brand FMIC - but hundreds of $ less in installation/labour (no barwork, piping etc)... plug&play

[burkey22]

Ill do that. Thanks.

[Sydneykid]

OK the R34GTT intercooler is in. The latest pictures are in the opening post, which is updated. I haven't driven it yet, I'll do that early in the morning. I hope to fit the exhaust next week and then stick it on the dyno.

[Sydneykid]

Drove the Stagea around a bit today, not very far but enough to notice some things. Most obvious is the launch, with the standard intercooler it used to get 0.5 bar held against the torque converter at 2,300 rpm. With the R34GTT intercooler it gets to 0.7 bar at 2,400 rpm, boy does it jump off the line now, whiplash. Also it used to noticeably taper off over 5,000 rpm in power, it doesn't now, it pulls to 6,500 rpm much freer.

Can't wait to get the exhaust on it and whack it on the dyno:cheers:

[HKS34R]

Glad to see you put that IC to good use SK.

[Sydneykid]

Glad to see you put that IC to good use SK.

It was in good condition, I should have got you to send the plastic R34GTT ducting with it though. Modifying the Stagea ducting was tricky and made my brain hurt trying to come up with something simple and yet effective.

Quite a few people have asked me to do a temperature drop test across the core. So tonight I will set up the temperature probes on the outside of the end tanks. The absolute temperatures won't mean much, but the temperature drop should be somewhat meaningful.

[MANWHORE]

Hi Sydney Kid

Interested to see your dyno results. When I installed my gtt cooler, I did a before and after dyno on the same day, similar temps. At stock boost(8 psi because of catback and pod), I noticed boost increase by <0.5 psi, which gave an increase of about 3 rwkw. Not a real biggy.

I imagine the effect would be exponential though. As more restrictions are removed, e.g. exhuast, and the boost is upped to 12+ psi, I believe I've heard you say that the boost drop becomes quite large across the stock intercooler, and so the gtt cooler should have more of an effect.

I've been following your threads very carefully about the highflow turbos. I noticed that they can handle quite high boost through a fmic. the cooling capacity, as well as flow restriction on the gtt cooler would be worse than a fmic, so what would be a safe boost to run a high flow on? car is r33 gtst.

Thanks mate

[Sydneykid]

Hi Sydney Kid

Interested to see your dyno results. When I installed my gtt cooler, I did a before and after dyno on the same day, similar temps. At stock boost(8 psi because of catback and pod), I noticed boost increase by <0.5 psi, which gave an increase of about 3 rwkw. Not a real biggy.

I imagine the effect would be exponential though. As more restrictions are removed, e.g. exhuast, and the boost is upped to 12+ psi, I believe I've heard you say that the boost drop becomes quite large across the stock intercooler, and so the gtt cooler should have more of an effect.  

I've been following your threads very carefully about the highflow turbos. I noticed that they can handle quite high boost through a fmic. the cooling capacity, as well as flow restriction on the gtt cooler would be worse than a fmic, so what would be a safe boost to run a high flow on? car is r33 gtst.

Thanks mate

It's an interesting subject isn't it?

If I was aiming for the 265rwkw (that we get at 1.4 bar from the R34GTT) out of the Stagea, I wouldn't be using an R34GTT intercooler. I have an R32 GTR intercooler on the shelf if the power target was that high. Since it is a much more modest 200 4wkw I won't be using anywhere near that boost level. I suspect that ~1 bar will probably be enough. The intercooler internal restriction is to airflow and the airflow for 200 4wkw is ~20% less than needed for 265rwkw.

To answer your question, boost measured at the plenum is not going to tell us much, airflow is really the issue. I have seen 215 rwkw out of an RB20DET fitted with an R34GTT intercooler, so whatever boost is necessary to achieve 215 rwkw would seem to be OK. The GCG ball bearing hi flow seems to be very efficient from 1 bar to 1.6 bar, so there is plenty of scope.

My methodology is going to be to start at 0.8 bar on the Stagea and increase boost until I reach 200 4wkw, then stop increasing the boost. Obviously I will monitor knock and modify A/F ratios as I go. My only worry is that I might run out of compromised adjustments (timing versus A/F ratio) using the DFA before I get to 200 rwkw. I will have the adjustable exhaust camshaft pulley on then, so I can use it to move the power around if necessary, even if I have to sacrifice a bit of max power to achieve a reasonable tuning balance.

Hope that made sense:cheers:

[Brazen]

Enjoy reading your projects SK... you not only help with all this factual/opinion stuff... you express it in a way that makes someone like me with no previous know-how turn into someone now reading and reading and tinkering and becoming really excited about my car and what I can do to it... you should be an author or something!

Anyway - enough of the butter-up... looking at your first post here I cant work out how to calculate the core's airflow... you concluded a 23% (i think) increase in flow for the GTT cooler core over the Stagea stockie and cant work out how to do the same calculations on cores I'm looking at - well one particular core.

As you've probably picked up from this and other threads I'm pretty close to finalising my decision on intercooler, and I think it'll be a choice between the Blitz front-mount for around $1400, or the ARC sidemount I mentioned before for maybe $700.

* How do I work out the improvement in flow of the ARC unit over my R34gtt stockie? The ARC specs are 250x220x110.

Everybody keeps telling me "FRONT MOUNT FRONT MOUNT"... but just thinking - if the flow numbers are up enough with the ARC unit - theres alot more I could do with the $700 less it costs than the Blitz FMIC.

Cheers (AGAIN) SK

[Sydneykid]

Enjoy reading your projects SK... you not only help with all this factual/opinion stuff... you express it in a way that makes someone like me with no previous know-how turn into someone now reading and reading and tinkering and becoming really excited about my car and what I can do to it... you should be an author or something!

Anyway - enough of the butter-up... looking at your first post here I cant work out how to calculate the core's airflow... you concluded a 23% (i think) increase in flow for the GTT cooler core over the Stagea stockie and cant work out how to do the same calculations on cores I'm looking at - well one particular core.

As you've probably picked up from this and other threads I'm pretty close to finalising my decision on intercooler, and I think it'll be a choice between the Blitz front-mount for around $1400, or the ARC sidemount I mentioned before for maybe $700.

* How do I work out the improvement in flow of the ARC unit over my R34gtt stockie?  The ARC specs are 250x220x110.

Everybody keeps telling me "FRONT MOUNT FRONT MOUNT"... but just thinking - if the flow numbers are up enough with the ARC unit - theres alot more I could do with the $700 less it costs than the Blitz FMIC.

Cheers (AGAIN) SK

I do write the odd article for magazines, mostly on suspension. When I get time I might write some more, but just too busy righ now.

Working out increased flow is pretty easy when you are comparing 2 (or more) intercoolers with the same internal and external construction. It is simply a matter of using their external core dimensions. There are 2 dimensions that are importand for flow. that is the thickness and the height. The thirds dimension, the width, is important for cooling, but longer width also adds a bit of restriction. The other consideration is end tank design and that can have a noticeable effect on flow. Since the 2 Nissan coolers have similar end tank design, I have ignored that in my estimates.

The R34GTT intercooler is the same width as the Stagea intercooler so there is no additional restriction to take into account. Hence a simple look at the thickness and height will give a good indication of the flow potential.

The R34GTT core is 80 mm thick and the Stagea's 65 mm, that's a 23% increase.

The R34GTT core is 225 mm high and the Stagea's 180 mm, that's a 22% increase,

This is confirmed by the number of tubes, being 18 versus 15, that's a 20% increase.

Adding the thickness and height together gives a 45% increase in internal dimension of the tubes which is what determines how much airflow the core will pass. My rule of thumb is to bank on at least 50% of that, hence 23% (rounded). Now, I don't know whether that is correct, but it is most certainly conservative. It also pretty much corresponds with the power increase from 170 kw (Stagea) to the R34GTT power increase of 204 kw (20%).

Since I have seen plenty of RB25DET's with 170 rwkw using the standard intercooler, I felt that I could add 23% to get the 210 rwkw (200 4wkw) that is my power target for the Stagea. I also have seen an R32GTST (RB20DET) make 215 rwkw using an R34GTT intercooler, it runs the same turbo (GCG ball bearing hi flow) as I am and it is tuned very well using a Power FC. That's probably better than I am going to achieve with the DFA, but I will have a dump advantage (split versus standard) and the VVT and the extra 500 cc's. Time will tell whether they balance out.

Moving onto your question about the ARC intercooler......the difficulty is, I have no idea whether or not the core will have more internal restriction than the standard Nissan cores. I suspect it will, as the width is the limiting factor in cooling and ARC will have wanted to increase the cooling. But they are limited by space, hence the 250 mm width, which is a 19% increase compared to the 210 mm of the standard Nissan cores. I also have no idea of the relativities of the end tank design, so I will assume they are no worse than the Nissan design for this estimate.

For the purposes of this calculation I will assume a linear increase in restriction in line with the increase in width. The important dimension is the thickness, 110 mm versus 65 mm, which is a 69% increase. Then we have the height increase, 220 mm versus 185 mm which is a 19% increase. So 69% + 19% = 88% X 50% = 44%. As discussed above, I need to factor that down by the increase in width so 44% X (100% - 19%) = 36%. The power potential calc is 170 rwkw + 36% = 230 rwkw. Based on that (somewhat conservative calc) I would say the ARC core will have sufficient flow to make at least 220 4wkw in a Stagea.

The real hard bit is cooling potential and that depends very much on the efficiency of the turbo when producing 220 4wkw worth of airflow (~36 lbs of airflow per minute). If you choose a turbo with good efficiency at that airflow, then the cooling should be adequate, noting the 19% increase in width and the 69% increase in thickness. Maybe consider an intercooler spray for those hot Perth days.

You may have read this post elsewhere

There are 4 important things to consider when choosing an intercooler;

1. Cooling the inlet airflow (this effects the temperaturee of the inlet air)

2. The effect of the intercooler on the radiator (this effects the water temp of the engine)

3. The efficiency in passing inlet airflow through the intercooler (this is a measure of how much pressure loss there is across the core)

4. It's internal volume (this effects the throttle response of the engine)

The ARC is going to be good in 2, 3, and 4 and probably OK (not brilliant) in #1. Don't underestimate the importance of #4 whne choosing an intercooler.

Last thing to mention is tuning, regardless of the intercooler design it is going to take very careful tuning to get 220 4wkw out of a Stagea. Make sure it gets the appropriate level of attention as you won't have much margin for error.

Hope that made some sense:cheers:

PS; Yes, I know I used an S1 Stagea as the basis of the calcs and you have an S2. But I don't think it matters, plus I have no real world experience stretching the R34GTT (Stagea S2) intercooler in an R34GTT (Stagea S2).

[Brazen]

Once again - immensely helpful.

That seems to hit my target kilowatts of 210 - 220 right on the money... and I suppose if I get any hassles when I finally get around to hi-flowing the turbo I can look at a FMIC then - but for now the ARC cooler brand new for $600 delivered to WA seems to be the deal - coz there's no extra expense (no piping and can fit myself) - and the spare change over a FMIC will pay for some of the other mods to actually edge towards those kW... savings will probably go on split dump/front pipe, hiflow cat and the R34 daughterboard groupbuy (if they ever get around to it).

Thanks SK!

[Sydneykid]

Once again - immensely helpful.  

That seems to hit my target kilowatts of 210 - 220 right on the money... and I suppose if I get any hassles when I finally get around to hi-flowing the turbo I can look at a FMIC then - but for now the ARC cooler brand new for $600 delivered to WA seems to be the deal - coz there's no extra expense (no piping and can fit myself) - and the spare change over a FMIC will pay for some of the other mods to actually edge towards those kW... savings will probably go on split dump/front pipe, hiflow cat and the R34 daughterboard groupbuy (if they ever get around to it).

Thanks SK!

In the spiriti of "no such thing as a free lunch".........if I don't reach my 200 4wkw target because of the R34GTT intercooler. And you do reach 200 4wkw with the ARC intercooler (but not 220 4wkw) then I would like to buy the ARC intercooler off you for the same as you paid for it, plus freight of course.

Did that make sense?

[jlnewton]

I fitted a R34 gtt cooler to my r33 sedan a few weeks back now, I was lucky enough to get the 34 ducting for it as well which, with 1 little cut, squeezes behind the series 2 front bar nicely. I was interested to note you said the boost was higher at around 2400rpm. I haven't had a chance to put mine on the dyno yet but I thought it felt like it had a little more low end torque. I just thought I may have only been dreaming, can't wait to finish the exhaust, only cat back atm, and increase the boost to around 10psi. Some simple, cheap, stealth mods, I like

The only small issue I had was refitting the inner guard, as the 34 cooler hangs a little lower, it made refitting the inner guard VERY tight. Seems to be all hanging together though it is under alot more tension now....

P.S. I have a few pics of the install on a series 2 R33 in my gallery....

[Brazen]

In the spiriti of "no such thing as a free lunch".........if I don't reach my 200 4wkw target because of the R34GTT intercooler.  And you do reach 200 4wkw with the ARC intercooler (but not 220 4wkw) then I would like to buy the ARC intercooler off you for the same as you paid for it, plus freight of course.

Did that make sense?

Hey SK

Before I go posting it in the for sale thread - thought itd be the right thing to do to offer the ARC unit to you first - same price plus freight.

EDIT: Oops - actually second option to SK... first option to the guy who I stuffed around by keeping my stockie that I promised him - he's getting back to me...

As I'm getting the Masa kit - I wont be fitting the ARC sidemount for two reasons - first coz I need the $ for the MASA kit, and second coz the Masa kit front bar will need a FMIC.... so no point going ahead and fitting the ARC unit for only a few months.

So yeah - if u dont want it SK no probs - second dibs goes to the rest of the Stagea forum fellas in here that might want to retain the stock/stealth look - first PM or reply below.

Details on the ARC unit are in the few posts above... ask any questions u like. Never fitted, bigger airflow (rated to 600hp but I wouldnt be pushing it that far lol), $2100 RRP - selling $600 plus freight.

I'll hold off and check replies here for a couple of days b4 posting in the For Sale for the rest of the forum population

EDIT #2: SOLD - the guy who paid me a deposit on my stockie took his first option on the ARC sidemount... $600 closer to the Masa kit yay!

Adam