How Much For HKS GT-SS?

[R32-GTS]

Don't try and fit them yourself unless you are quite exerienced with turbo swaps as i have seen people try to do there own gtr turbo swaps and taken days and days. Its quite an involved job requiring more than a socket set and a screwdriver.

As for trust vs HKS the ball bearing units are far more reliable than the plain bearings. The trust turbos still use 270 degree thrust bearings which wear out very easily (especially at hight boost) and is no match for modern day ball bearing techonology in terms of reliability.

[Steve]

R32 GTS, where do you get your info for reliability on bb and non bb turbos? completely flys in the face of very well respected, and very experienced mechanics I have spoken to, including one that was responsible for australias quickest GTR.

you may have seen it if you were at drag combat???

[gun-r32]

I know they arent GTSS turbos, but autobarn is selling GTR Trust turbo kits for under $5K

If you want to head in this direction, I have a friend that works for them at melbourne that could hook you up.

pm sent, regarding this

[rev210]

I understand all the points you have made, and they do apply 'theoretically' on their own, but once applied to the context of the posts above, they start to fall apart...

Where did you get that info from.  I have spoken to a couple of prominant tuners in SA that both SWEAR the trust turbos are more reliable than BB.  I have seen trust turbos that have had alot of abuse without any reliability problems.  I have seen a BB turbos that have shown signs of wear (CHRA getting loose) after 10,000kms.

This may be true if you were comparing two BB turbos or two bush bearing turbos one with and one without water cooling, but otherwise you just arent comparing apples and apples.  

The bush bearing is designed to run without water cooling, the BB is designed to run with.  Agreed if you were to water cool a bush bearing it MAY last longer, but you cannot compare the life of the two without actually doing tests.  

The 'exact' same bearing design????  They arent the exact same bearing design.

Yes BB design works well, but from what I have seen, bush bearings have come a long way.  If you had the same spec turbo and used two different CHRAs, you may have a valid point - but at the end of the day, they arent the same spec.  The GTSS works well, so does the T517

Very true, but you also need to take into account MANY other factors, such as the compressor efficiency, etc, etc, etc.  But still, if a turbo is 'limited' in its ability to make boost (due to longevity reasons) why wouldnt you buy a turbo that has extra potential, ie, can be boosted higher without having to worry about the turbo needing to be rebuilt.  

If you had a choice of two turbos, both flowing the same amount a 1 bar whilst being 80% efficient.  Both of the turbos will flow the same amount of power at 2 bar, with 75% efficiency, but one will last 5000kms, the other 20000kms - which would you choose.  Of course the one that is capable of producing more power with minimal reliability issues when compare to one that WILL have reliability issues.

Hmm, when you consider that you can now buy a performance turbo, that lasts well, and works very well for under 3k bolt on kit, all gaskets, adaptors, hoses, clamps, lines etc, I dont think they are bad at all.  Especially when compared to what if available for a few dollars less in generic turbo form that just doesnt give anywhere near the same performance.  After all the heart of a turbo charged car is the turbo - a good one will keep the smile on your face every time you drive the car.

Once you take into account duty, gst, broker fees and shipping, importing a HKS GTSS turbo kit is more expensive than buying a trust T517Z kit that is being retailed in australia for under 5K.

GT turbos are good, no denying it, you do need to keep the boost down if you want to get a long life from them, they are FAR more expensive to rebuild than bush bearing.  As long as you buy a performance setup for the style of driving you want (street, drag, drift etc) you will be miles ahead of someone running a generic turbo.

GTSS and T517Z are both excellent turbos, just dont rule out the T517Z because they have bush bearing instead of BB.  They are bloody awesome turbos.

Ok, I think I need to be more clear as to what I mean. After all words often fail us.

I will address your responses in order if I may.

First, I base my information on the less reliable trust turbo from peoples experience who actually owned trust and mitsubishi turbos (one and the same) and from a more general base of those who have owned any kind of plain bearing turbo. I think I should have made clear the fact that I don't think Trust turbo's are prone to breaking down prematurely when used correctly. On the other hand they quite understandably require more frequent rebuilding than my experience with a correctly built and used ball bearing turbo.

I think we ought to avoid talking about freak failures, since this does not paint an accurate picture. But rather 'best/average case' examples where the most time has passed before a rebuild is required. In this case I can name a fair number of people I know who have rebuilt their plain bearing turbo's, including a trust units within a reasonable space of time. Did they rebuild them every year? Not in every case and in those that did it was because the turbo recieved alot of boost when it was used and produced large amounts of power. A fact that will shorten the life of any turbo ballbearing or not. And again it's not something that the owners were suprised by it is very normal. Ballbearing wise all I can say is I know plenty of people who have done enormous numbers of kms without a sign of any wear and I can't recall knowing anyone who needed a rebuild on one to date due to normal wear and tear.

If you want a thread with a discussion on real gtr's and no 'tuning shop talk';

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthre...ead.php?t=21242

This would put anyone off when it comes to deciding between the two turbo's. Unless you are prepared for rebuilding them as a normal event.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...highlight=T517z

Which some people like at least understand, and make an informed choice. Cheap to rebuild just more frequently.

Another thread page that shows the average power delivery on HKS vs trust and why they kick ass.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...highlight=T517z

As for comparing apples with apples. We aren't doing that are we? I was pointing out that water cooling is a good idea, and the Trust/Mitsubishi turbos don't have it. So cooler turbo bearings mean less wear and I'm sure you agree. At least then you could agree that a turbo regardless of it's bearing style benifits from cooler bearing temps by prolonging it's servicable life. You are perhaps not aware that plain bearing turbos can have water cooling, the most obvious example I can point out to you is an R32 GTR.

Now about the inertia example what I meant was the resistance to movement is greater in a plain bearing turbo due to friction. By 'exactly the same design' I meant the same housings/turbine etc. I don't think you disagree that a ball bearing provides less resistance than a plain bearing. So I'm sure you will agree that if a turbo is equiped with a ball bearing it will more freely spin.

Why wouldn't you buy a turbo you can boost higher? Well for a start I think about the higher intake temps and the fact that I might have a stock engine. You know there is more than just " compressor maps " to look at. If you have your eyes fixed on the boost capabillities I am afraid you are looking at the horses arse not it's teeth.

As for generic ballbearing Garret turbo's they are good enough for every form of high level (and dollar) motorsport including Indy car racing ( a sport I have involvement in ). They do if fact produce the HKS turbo's under contract as with the many various other motor racing teams that contract them and their custom housings and so on, as such these parts and info are not made availible to the general public. Having said that garret do strive to make excellent matched turbos for the masses, that perform outstandingly with the most recent examples showing as much potential as some of the rearched offerings from HKS. A local example of how they shame the Trust turbo's can be found in Pete's GTR. 530rwhp and a very nice curve, better than I've seen from a set of 517z's anywhere on pump fuel.

[Steve]

Stock engine:

2.7L with cams:

Both the above are from the manufacturers own published figures.

[gun-r32]

I like that power curve....that is a nice power curve

[Steve]

The GTSS makes a little more down low, but that is with larger capacity and cams, so with stock engine, the T517Z has it on them hands down.

Both curves arent too bad at all. Both setups would rip. Over 400rwkw

[rev210]

gun-r32,

Having crapped on so far I have not asked what you want to do. So what do you want to do?

If it's track work we can point you in the direction of guys who really do this who will basically tell you to go for something 'garret' be it a HKS turbo (yes garrett make all the bits) , an N1 (garrett parts again) or a garrett off the shelf retail turbo.

The fastest turbo charged track GTR's all run a garrett bastard of some kind, should tell you something.

Sydneykid on this forum is someone who is into this.

Personally I like the GT-SS concept given they reputedly deliver full boost 1,000rpm lower than the R34 N1's with the same sort of peak power.

Ulitmately to cut through the hype and conjecture in this thread just talk to actual GTR owners who have had these turbo's and get some more insight.

[Steve]

Rev210, another UK thread:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthre...ead.php?t=36352

spose it just depends on who you ask over there

[gun-r32]

What am I looking for out of the car?

Pretty much daily driver, with occasional strip use. Not interested in track work at this stage (budget wont accomadate!). Id like to get around 250 kw atw, with a nice linear power curve. I have about 6-7K to speand, it already has exhaust & filters, but everything else is virginal!

[pnblight]

Well i think the garret 320hp ball bearing (R34 N1 as sold by Unique Auto Sport)are the go myself (not what horsepower in a box are selling, these are not gtr bolt in turbos)and the only combo I HAVE SEEN compare are the HKS 2530( but i'm sure the trust/tomei/apexi items are all good turbs) and i would love to know the specs on the IHI turbs on the Z tune.

The only GTSS i have seen make some serious hp seemed to lack a bit when run down the strip but they are still developing this car and by the size of the budget i'm shore they will get results.

[Beer Baron]

What am I looking for out of the car?

Pretty much daily driver, with occasional strip use. Not interested in track work at this stage (budget wont accomadate!). Id like to get around 250 kw atw, with a nice linear power curve. I have about 6-7K to speand, it already has exhaust & filters, but everything else is virginal!

there are a few people who have made near 250atwkw with stock 32 GTR turbos. Power FC, cams, FULL exhaust (split dump, front pipes, HF cat, 3inch+ cat back system) pods/airbox, 1 bar boost and some good tuning. so you will certainly get there with the GT-SS kit. to what you have I would add:

dump pipes (for me, the new trust ones which incorporate new front pipes)

Cams (tomei cams, maybe 264s)

cam gears

Power FC

some form of boost controller

with a healthy engine and an agressive tune you should get 240kw atw.

[rev210]

Rev210, another UK thread:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthre...ead.php?t=36352

spose it just depends on who you ask over there

Yes it does. I've been on that forum for years. Hows a ratio of 6 to 2? Thats how many guys I can think of (could be more against actually) who I know have had experience with these on that forum. 6 of them said 'avoid' and two said they liked them. The balance in the argument for reliabillity rests against the T517z. But, like I said before if you budget for a rebuild every once and a while it's not a big deal (although changing them is a bitch).

The thread you pointed out has a grand total of one owner of T517s' putting forward a reccomendation on boost levels for a newbie. Hardly case making.

gun-r32,

That makes the HKS 2530 or GT-SS an easy choice then. Again the power comes in early with either of these and they are a great street turbo setup, with the occasional drag race thrown in. Power wise you can get away fairly cheaply (its all relative though) on the drivetrain and suspension setup to cope. And ultimately a bit of carefull selection in the suspension and tyres should see you nip close to high 10's.

[gun-r32]

yes I agree, this is exactly the reason I posed this this question, and after reading back through the threads, plus talking to a couple of tuners, I think I will settle on the HKS2530's...It just seems logical. They may be a little dearer, but at the end of the day, we'd only be talking around 1K. Im sure I could stretch the wallet to accomodate this. Cheers all for your info.

[Steve]

Yes, do as Rev says.... arrogance

[GTS-t VSPEC]

Haven't they stopped making the HKS2530's?